Developing Nations, Catholicism, Corruption

[PbloPicasso]

I really have been perplexed in how it appears that most Catholic nations that have very high populations of Catholics seem to also have the most corrupt governments. Haiti comes to mind right now. Mexico is no better as well as many of the other Central and South American countries. It seems that the reason Protestants evangelize particularly in those countries is to convert Catholics, which may be better than where they currently place their faith, mediocrity. I say it that way because I’ve heard priests say it that way too. Why are things like this? Why have these particular nations fallen into such scandalous existence, corrupt governments or authorities?

Evangelization seems to be an appropriate place for this open disucssion becuase we do need to transform our lives if we are t truly evangelize. I hear one excuse after another for why things are the way they are, but I see no effort to really try to change or improve it. We say the clergy have the reigns, yet some of them scandalize the rest of us, and then nothing seems to be done, effectively anyhow, about it. The Holy Father seems to be speaking up, but where are the holy men reiterating what the Pope is saying about us?

Encouraging words would be helpful. It’s discouraging to see such disparity in our world, everywhere. Feeling depressed and lonely about all of it.

 

[Dale_M]

I really have been perplexed in how it appears that most Catholic nations that have very high populations of Catholics seem to also have the most corrupt governments. Haiti comes to mind right now. Mexico is no better as well as many of the other Central and South American countries.

I think talking in generalities about such matters can result in misleading conclusions. However, I think the corruption you mention has less to do with the Catholic influence than with the colonial legacy. In former colonies, an oligarchy of powerful families often control the economy and the government. They use the levers of government to maintain their economic dominance. Because middle class entrepreneurs often are squeezed out in this arrangement, the middle class often resorts to civil service jobs and seek to supplement their (meager) pay by soliciting bribes.

I’m not sure this is any less true in the former colonies of Protestant nations than it is for the former colonies of Catholic nations. Perhaps one difference, if we look back 200-300 years ago, is that England may have been more supportive of middle class entrepreneurs in some of its colonies rather than using a powerful ruling class to maintain control.

 

[PerfectTiming]

South America has suffered under oppressive regimes. From the colonial powers to the more recent spread of military dictatorship, they have a history that is very different from the European or North American. Also take into account that organisations like the World Bank have policies that favour countries like the USA at the expense of those who are still developing. It’s not that easy for them. The military dictatorships were very recent and really held many countries back. Give them time, it is easy to forget that these countries are much more in infancy than others.

Also, what you describe is a fallacy in logic. Just because there are corrupt countries that also have a high proportion of Catholics does not mean that these two are in any way linked. There are many, many corrupt systems where Catholicism is barely existent - think of Zimbabwe, Iraq, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, China, Burma, etc.

I disagree that it is better for those people to be evangelised by Protestants. They reject the presence of Christ in the Eucharist and dare to remove books from the word of God. The better option would be to help them reconnect with the Catholic faith than let them fall prey to false teachings.

 

[puzzleannie]

I really have been perplexed in how it appears that most Catholic nations that have very high populations of Catholics seem to also have the most corrupt governments. Haiti comes to mind right now. Mexico is no better as well as many of the other Central and South American countries. It it.

you can carry out a discussion of such a hypothesis, but you must include, for it to be relevant, all the facts, not just the nominal religious affiliation of the citizens. Most notably, the history of the relationship between the Church and political leadership is a crucial factor to consider. The Church in Mexico was systematically persecuted from the time of the Revolution until the last 20 or so years. Among other detriments to the faith life of Mexican Catholics, this also left a leadership vacuum exploited by missionaries of other faiths. The same is true of some other Latin American countries.

As for “not seeing efforts to improve” the situation, unless one is congnizant of the work being done by the native and universal Church in the specific country you are dicsussing, you are not in a position to make such a statement. The fact that the Church continues to have martyrs to the faith in some of these countries belies the claim that “nothing is being done.”

 

[PbloPicasso]

As far as any of us “not being in a position to discuss” any of this: the same can be said of all the other subjects for the overwelming majority of Catholics on this forum. I have a much higher knowledge about foreign countries than those of you realize. I’ve also simplified the discussion to drag others into the discussion. History speaks louder than words. Just as the Church is revealed through history as being Catholic, so does history tell the story about nations throughout history. This is not to blame the Catholic Church, but rather to blame the people for not allowing God to run their lives, just as in “developed” nations.

This topic popped in my head after watching a mini-documentary about the work being done by a very popular evangelical Christian that is ministering to Haitians. His church are engaged in helping people suffering and they leave bibles (non-Catholic) with each family. This is a technique that we used to use to evangelize everyone we helped in our previous faith. The point is that they get more centered attention. Where are the Catholic evangelists? Haiti is 80% Catholic. It takes more than money to evangelize. In fact, I’d bet that Catholics are donating more moeny than other groups (major guess) but where are the Catholics to evangelize, reach out, to touchg their personal lives with a Christ centered faith?

Some of us are quite aware of culture and governments having influence over years, something that is not adequately addressed in dealng with the Spanish Inquisition, for example. If other Catholics recognize the truth in history they will begin to otherstand the misplaced interpretations of the Catholic Church being the problem. However, historically, as evident even in today’s society, officials in the Catholic Church are products of the culture of their “worlds”, typically not very well transformed or inadequately moved to make a difference IMO. The point of such discourse is to motivate peole to think about their faith and how they can make a difference. But, we are all affected by the inaction of others. Sure, not everyone can pack a bag and go help, but shouldn’t there be more talk about such help.

Let me cap this post off by saying, I’m offended by the particular evangelist, not matter who his famous dad served, because they have every intension of converting Catholics to their Baptist faith. I’ve never supported Baptist teaching because it seriously falls so short of biblical teaching from my previous Protestant faith. I was Church of Christ (modified Calvinist). I am offended by my own previous faith members as well for trying to convert Catholics as well as people from other Christian faiths. They are living out their faith beliefs, so I get it. So, where are the Catholic evangelists? This is what needs improving in our faith. Turning evangelism over solely to the clergy is not even correct. We are, by our baptism, supposed to evangelize not only in deed, but also in word. At least that’s what I understand.

 

[puzzleannie]

use your example of Haiti
you ask why do predominantly Catholic countries have problems, yet in this case you ignore the fact that the dominant religion in Haiti as practiced by the people is not Catholicism but a syncretic religion based on voodoo and other elements. So before your discussion can be meaningful you have to look at the situation as it is, not just make a general statement and start from there. You also have to tell us what you would like to discuss.
The professed religion of a country’s leadership and corruption among them?
Evangelization efforts by other sects?
Failure of the Catholic Church to evangelize?

I see that you are angry about something, but I still don’t know what your real issue is.

With your wide knowledge of Haiti, for example, could you share with us both what the Church is doing right there, and what is she failing to do?

 

[PbloPicasso]

Puzzled Annie, I can see that you are,…, hmn,…puzzled? I have to assume you have not seen the news and whoe I’ve referred to in the brief mini documentary on one of the more famous Baptist preachers known to America. His son, like all good Baptists do, is evangelize anyone willing to listen. There are Catholics being evangelized into being bible only Christians there. The rest is filler. It wold be nice to see a higher Catholic presence. It would be nice to see Catholic evangelists meeting the needs of the people there.