Did anyone in Christendom, from 33 AD to 1000 AD, believe the holy bible to be the Christians only authority?

[Nicea325]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicea325
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There you go again saying two different things. Did they or did they not affirm SS…CalChristian?

Read the quotes.
I’ll let them stand, verbatim, exactly as they stated.

I have no need to read them as I have read scores of the ECF works. I am asking you tell me…yes or no?

Quote:
Sola Scriptura = The doctrine that the Bible-Alone contains all knowledge necessary for salvation.

Sola Scripture = the practice of using Scripture as the rule in the norming of disputed doctrines among us.

Precisely! Doctrines which are necessary and vital for our salvation. Is the Trinity a doctrine? Was not scripture used IMPLICITLY as a means to prove and defend it? So why is it not ONE ECF ever mentions SS vital for salvation? Why isn’t ever mentioned at ANY ecumenical council?

Quote:
I have yet to read ANY ECF ever defend,support,approve let alone the “verbatim” definition you so clearly claim.

Just one example:

*St. Gregory of Nyssa (330-395):

…we are not entitled to such license, namely, of affirming whatever we please. For we make Sacred Scripture the rule and the norm of every doctrine. Upon that we are obliged to fix our eyes, and we approve only whatever can be brought into harmony with the intent of these writings.

(On the Soul and the Resurrection, quoted in Jaroslav Pelikan, The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition [Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1971], p. 50.)*

First of all,you provided a secondary source. Now if you are under the impression Gregory believed in SS or practiced,you are dead wrong. SS is doctrine or belief the Bible-ALONE provides all the knowledge necessary for salvation or it is the ONLY source or norm to determine doctrine. Gregory believed nothing of the sort. If so,show me where Gregory used the norm of SS to defend or determine the CANON of the Bible? Remember you quoted him as saying:

For we make Sacred Scripture the rule and the norm of EVERY doctrine

The OT/NT are DOCTRINE. So where is the Scripture used as the rule and norm to give us the canons, by Gregory?

And I hate to rain on your party,but Gregory is not saying or asserting what you believe. More important,you did not even bother tell us from what work he was saying such statements? To WHOM was he writing and for WHAT PURPOSES?

Yes Cal…even the CC confirms that Sacred Scripture is vital for determing doctrine,which you seem to profoundly misunderstand. However,the mistake you so repeatedly make is the belief the early church adhered only to or practed SS in the strictest sense. However,the church did not EXCLUDE Traditions. As I stated,chapter and verse where scripture determined the canons for the OT & NT? You have yet to provide a shred of evidence.

The red font words of St. Gregory are, verbatim, the definition of the praxis.

If you read the 3 posts filled with similar verbatim quotes, they all describe (and affirm) the very same practice, one that is Sola Scriptura.

Now, I’m NOT saying it’s a good practice because all these sainted “fathers” of YOUR church so advise and affirm, but then that isn’t the issue here. The issue is did any of YOUR church’s “fathers” affirm the practice between 33 AD and 1000 AD. I quickly found these quotes (among hundreds more - I just did these few), and supplied them in response to the question. Do what you want with what your “fathers” wrote, they are YOUR churchs’ “fathers” - that’s not the issue here and it’s not really a concern of mine.

As stated…you failed to provide the work where the ECF made the statement and why did he say such a statement? See…it is called “proof-text” to present a smoking gun. It is not going to fool anyone who has studied the ECF’s in great detail.

Quote:
One more time Cal. It is you who so dearly defends and supports SS as a solid '“practice” which incorporates salvation,then why would God not find it vital to teach?

I’m at a loss to know what I said you are replying to here…

Where did I support anything?
Where did I say ANYTHING about salvation?
Where did I say “God teaches” anywhere?
I’m sorry, I just don’t know what I posted that you are replying to.
Provide the quote for me, I’ll do my best to answer any questions you may have. The only thing I request is that your questions are about what I said. Is that reasonable?

And I am at loss someone who claims SS was practiced by God and it is “the rule in the norming of disputed doctrines among us” fails to answer why would God NOT teach it?

Quote:
SS is a practice stating the Bible-Alone contains all the knowledge for salvation.

Sola Scripture = the practice of using Scripture as the rule in the norming of disputed doctrines among us.

Which begs the question you so freely choose to ignore or dance around. Chapter and verse where the canons where used for the norming of disputed doctrine or which books should belong in the Bible?

 

[CopticChristian]

Where does the PRACTICE of embracing Scripture as the rule teach that it does?

In the Rule of Law, does the Law teach what is the full corpus of the law in every jurisdiction? Does that make the Rule of Law an unsound practice?

Does your bible have a table of contents? Your response concerning embracing Scripture as a rule makes no sense. Your response is concerning the rule of law. you then go on to speak of the corpus of the law and jurisdiction and unsound practice. I am truly worried about your state of mind.

I am begginning to think that you may not be of sound mind and for that I will ask forgiveness for not recognizing it sooner. I believe you are a sincere person with thoughts that may wander and thoughts that are difficult to formulate. I see that there is no reason to further discussion with you as you lack capacity and for that I am sad I did not recognize this sooner.

 

[CopticChristian]

I have no need to read them as I have read scores of the ECF works. I am asking you tell me…yes or no?

Precisely! Doctrines which are necessary and vital for our salvation. Is the Trinity a doctrine? Was not scripture used IMPLICITLY as a means to prove and defend it? So why is it not ONE ECF ever mentions SS vital for salvation? Why isn’t ever mentioned at ANY ecumenical council?

Just one example:

*St. Gregory of Nyssa (330-395):

…we are not entitled to such license, namely, of affirming whatever we please. For we make Sacred Scripture the rule and the norm of every doctrine. Upon that we are obliged to fix our eyes, and we approve only whatever can be brought into harmony with the intent of these writings.

(On the Soul and the Resurrection, quoted in Jaroslav Pelikan, The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition [Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1971], p. 50.)*

First of all,you provided a secondary source. Now if you are under the impression Gregory believed in SS or practiced,you are dead wrong. SS is doctrine or belief the Bible-ALONE provides all the knowledge necessary for salvation or it is the ONLY source or norm to determine doctrine. Gregory believed nothing of the sort. If so,show me where Gregory used the norm of SS to defend or determine the CANON of the Bible? Remember you quoted him as saying:

For we make Sacred Scripture the rule and the norm of EVERY doctrine

The OT/NT are DOCTRINE. So where is the Scripture used as the rule and norm to give us the canons, by Gregory?

And I hate to rain on your party,but Gregory is not saying or asserting what you believe. More important,you did not even bother tell us from what work he was saying such statements? To WHOM was he writing and for WHAT PURPOSES?

Yes Cal…even the CC confirms that Sacred Scripture is vital for determing doctrine,which you seem to profoundly misunderstand. However,the mistake you so repeatedly make is the belief the early church adhered only to or practed SS in the strictest sense. However,the church did not EXCLUDE Traditions. As I stated,chapter and verse where scripture determined the canons for the OT & NT? You have yet to provide a shred of evidence.

As stated…you failed to provide the work where the ECF made the statement and why did he say such a statement? See…it is called “proof-text” to present a smoking gun. It is not going to fool anyone who has studied the ECF’s in great detail.

And I am at loss someone who claims SS was practiced by God and it is “the rule in the norming of disputed doctrines among us” fails to answer why would God NOT teach it?

Which begs the question you so freely choose to ignore or dance around. Chapter and verse where the canons where used for the norming of disputed doctrine or which books should belong in the Bible?

CalChristian is banned. At the bottom of your post it says edited by Nicea. At the bottom of Post 116 of Cal it says…

Last edited by Eric Hilbert; Today at 3:16 pm.

Something up with Cal…I do not believe Cal is stable.

 

[Nicea325]

CalChristian is banned. At the bottom of your post it says edited by Nicea. At the bottom of Post 116 of Cal it says…

Last edited by Eric Hilbert; Today at 3:16 pm.

Something up with Cal…I do not believe Cal is stable.

Yeah…I sort of picked it up due to his responses. He/she was all over the place and incoherent with the replies. I’ll pray for the individual.

 

[KathleenGee]

The fruit of Catholicism among believers is communion of one heart and mind and soul…through Jesus Christ…we are not of fractured faith.

 

[FaithfulAndTrue]

FaithfulAndTrue:

Indeed, I am fallible. I can only pray that the HS will guide me to the truth. Similarly though, your final authority made up of fallible men also interprets in the same manner and you trust the HS to guide them to the truth. I have always failed to see the difference.

You wrongly conclude your biased observation of fallible men. The pillar and foundation of truth is the Church and has guided us infallibly into truth. The Magesterium men, Sacred Tradition…acts of men…and Scripture written by men lead to all truth.

Maybe, but that is a statement of faith and not one of empirical fact. Further that statement of faith still rests on the shoulders of fallible men—just like the rest of us. I could just as easily say that you’re the one wrongly concluding from your biased observation of fallible men.

 

[KathleenGee]

What you are missing is the transmission of faith by the Holy Spirit given the Apostles at Pentecost through the primacy of Peter, who were led by the Holy Spirit to chose their successors, who demonstrated apostolic faith. This is called the teaching magisterium of the Church – the work of the Church to properly interpret Scripture.

I have to add here that Peter was given the keys to heaven and earth. St. John Newman spoke about how a key is made for a particular opening. The role of the papacy is both representation and work of keeping unity of faith in the church so that we are communion. The other duty of the papacy is with the keys given it by Christ, the papacy is also the definer of living revelation. That means that when the Holy Father speaks as teacher, he is speaking for the living church in the world today at this time and bridging us with God and all time.

By 100 AD, the Church found that the episcopal tradition of administration was more conducive to the universal structure of the Church as it expanded into many regions, languages and cultures, the Scriptures took more time to assure that revelation would be public and revealed universally, that there was the Apostles Creed established, along with the basic frame work of liturgy centered on the Eucharist, parts, tone, and spirit we have today.

In the Jewish tradition, God directed how He wanted to be worshipped, not man made worship. Jesus gave us the new form of worship…Himself…Word and Eucharist at the Last Supper. Our liturgy is not man made, but Christ made, fulfilling worship of ancient times.

The beginning Church was essentially as a seed. But it grew and expanded and developed. This is what is so hard for those who center their faith on written text…always open and vulnerable to misinterpretation and fragmentation. Ours is based on the living Christ, both through the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

When the priest gives a homily, it is only about Jesus Christ. So we are progressive, going forward in Christ. You never hear a priest getting up denouncing other people and their beliefs. That does not nurture our faith in Christ.

The spirituality and vision of Catholicism focuses on the fact that the mind of God is Christ, through which the universe was created. And that all in this world that is pure and good is a reflection of Christ Himself. Subsequently we ‘Christianize’ by recognizing all that is good in this world and incorporate it as well into the Church – art, philosophy, architecture…all for the glory of God through Christ.

Our spirituality is that which in essence is being servant.

 

[CopticChristian]

Maybe, but that is a statement of faith and not one of empirical fact. Further that statement of faith still rests on the shoulders of fallible men—just like the rest of us. I could just as easily say that you’re the one wrongly concluding from your biased observation of fallible men.

Well forgive me I forgot to say fallible men guided by the Holy Spirit…and you can consider that all you have to do is look in the world to see what it is God is doing…

**18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; **19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

There is no institution on earth that claims to be founded by Christ other than the OHCAC that has the credentials to claim “the pillar and foundation of truth”…don’t get angry with me, take it out on the creator.

Christ is the way the truth and the light and Paul tells us that God is interested in seeing the truth expressed and is unkind to those that suppress it.

 

[joe370]

FaithfulAndTrue;]Maybe, but that is a statement of faith and not one of empirical fact. Further that statement of faith still rests on the shoulders of fallible men—just like the rest of us.

Just like the fallible apostles who wrote infallibly via the guidance of the Infallible Holy Spirit. Did the Holy spirit stop guiding the fallible successors of the apostles, upon their demise, or did the holy Spirit continue to guide their fallible successors, or did the holy bible take over as the Christians only infallible guidance, with no one to infallibly interpret it since everyone is fallible?

I could just as easily say that you’re the one wrongly concluding from your biased observation of fallible men.

That’s a good point. Did God leave His church with a way to resolve doctrinal differences when 2 fallible Christians, both claiming to be right about the same doctrine, disagree?

 

[FaithfulAndTrue]

Just like the fallible apostles who wrote infallibly via the guidance of the Infallible Holy Spirit. Did the Holy spirit stop guiding the fallible successors of the apostles, upon their demise, or did the holy Spirit continue to guide their fallible successors, or did the holy bible take over as the Christians only infallible guidance, with no one to infallibly interpret it since everyone is fallible?

This (bolded) is a good question. But perhaps a question more to the point is, does the Holy Spirit guide only those successors and no one else? And how do we know who is guided and when?

That is really my point. You can BELIEVE that those fallible successors have interpreted the scriptures 100% in line with God’s Truth with the aid of the Holy Spirit, but the bottom line is that it is merely your belief which may or may not ultimately be true. This is because you are a fallible person making a decision in a fallen world to accept as true the decisions of other fallible men on the inerrant words of God. Now, maybe they are guided by the Holy Spirit and 100% in line with the Truth in their interpretation but we cannot empirically know. We can only believe it to be so or not so.

Have you ever made a wrong decision in your life? Have you ever felt that the Holy Spirit has guided you in a decision? This is the way I feel about all of us as followers of Christ while fallible. We can be guided by the Holy Spirit when we seek to be with all honesty and heart open. But, what if our hearts are not 100% open or are possibly distracted? What if we have some ongoing sin in our lives that we have yet to make right with the Lord? We could easily choose wrongly.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. I pray that you have a blessed day.