Did Catholic saints replace Roman gods?

[Moscati]

It is a very convoluted system. It’s like they are not gods, but if you read the official biographies of most of them very few where hardly capable of doing anything wrong. They have festivals in there honor, statues, medals, prayers to them and offerings given as thanks.

It is like the Catholics wont to have there monotheistic cake, and eat the polytheistic one two.

Really? Incapable of doing wrong? How about St. Augustine’s Confessions? St. Margaret of Cortona? St. Paul calls himself “the chief of sinners”. Honestly, I think we draw inspiration from the saints precisely because they are people like us, who still managed to live holy (though not perfect) lives, not because we see them as some sort of demigods.

I do admit some hagiographers are overly enthusiastic sometimes.

 

[cyberwolf001]

Really? Incapable of doing wrong? How about St. Augustine’s Confessions? St. Margaret of Cortona? St. Paul calls himself “the chief of sinners”.

I have no choice but to assume you do not know what the phrase “most of them” means. Just read the majority of the stories a few come out and say the Saint was preserved from mortal sin by God himself.

 

[LilyM]

I have no choice but to assume you do not know what the phrase “most of them” means. Just read the majority of the stories a few come out and say the Saint was preserved from mortal sin by God himself.

All of us can be preserved from mortal sin by God’s grace. That’s one reason the saints exist, to show us that. If they were shown as never even committing VENIAL sin that would be unreasonable, but it’s perfectly reasonable that we should be able to avoid (or at least very rarely succumb to) the biggies, the mortal sins.

Mind you it’s very rare to come across the phrase ‘retained his/her baptismal innocence’, which means they LITERALLY never committed a mortal sin, used about any Saint. In fact there are only two who come to mind, St Therese of Lisieux and St Padre Pio.

I’ve read plenty of lives of saints - don’t know what books you’ve got a hold of, but my reading certainly included a healthy amount of mention of the flaws of those saints.

Things like St Jerome’s notoriously bad temper, St Francis of Assisi stealing from his own father, St Nicholas losing it and giving the heretic Arius a good slap across the face, St Padre Pio doing the same to someone who concealed a sin from him in confession, St Thomas Aquinas’ overfondness for food, St Catherine of Siena’s overrigorous fasting which she had to be ordered by her spiritual director to cease, St Mary MacKillop being excommunicated, St Edward the Confessor’s flaws as king (remembering that he swore an oath to God to rule properly and pretty well failed) … and those are just the ones that immediately come to mind.

 

[Moscati]

I have no choice but to assume you do not know what the phrase “most of them” means. Just read the majority of the stories a few come out and say the Saint was preserved from mortal sin by God himself.

I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree. But the Church does not teach that the saints were sinless, perfect people, and I’d disagree with your assessment that the majority of the stories give that impression. St. Peter denied Christ. St. Thomas the Apostle doubted the Resurrection, heck, Moses the Patriarch was a murderer!

“Even among saints differences, discord and controversies arise . . . And I find this a consolation because we see that saints have not ‘come down from heaven.’ They are people like us, with problems, even complicated problems. Sanctity does not consist in never having made mistakes or sinned. Sanctity grows in the capacity for conversion and penance, of willingness to start again and, above all, in the capacity for reconciliation and forgiveness.” -Pope Benedict

 

[OchsFam]

I have no choice but to assume you do not know what the phrase “most of them” means. Just read the majority of the stories a few come out and say the Saint was preserved from mortal sin by God himself.

Just FYI, any statements like this without references is simply opinion. Any Catholic knows that the vast majority of saints had no such distinction as you are claiming. As you do not appear to be Catholic, I would question exactly how much legitimate research you have done in the subject. I have found that many people who make claims as to what the Church is professing, when they are at odds with what Catholics are saying, are getting their information from anti-Catholic sources that are not really reliable. Most saint’s stories are about their virtues, not their short comings. It does not mean they did not have short comings, but that it is not the focus of the saint’s life. Some saints had tremendous conversions which is the focus of their story and so it remains. You must look at each case independently.

To give an example, Pope John Paul II, who is being moved along the road of sainthood, went to confession every week. If the Church truly believed saints were sinless, John Paul II would not be considered since in order to have a confession, you must first have sins to confess. That being said, because they are in Heaven, we can know that they died with no mortal sins and they are currently living with no sin, but that is a different topic. They were saved from mortal sin by confession, not preserved from mortal sin. There is a tremendous difference.

The Church does not teach that saints were sinless. In fact, the Church teaches only a very few humans were sinless, Jesus and Mary. You could make a case for Enoch and Elijah though I do not think the Church teaches definitively on this.

In regards to what you claimed to be taught in an RCIA class, about saints being pagan gods repainted, I could say you are lying but it really doesn’t matter. The truth is, if your teacher said this, they were incorrect as none of them are repainted pagan gods. There is a group of people out there claiming this is what happened, but it does not make it true. There are also people out there saying Jesus Christ was a “repainting” of pagan gods because some of his miracles appear to be retelling of powers previously attributed to other gods. It doesn’t make them right either. I can say that 2 + 2 = 5. You can believe me, but both of us would be wrong.

God Bless.

 

[onetruth]

I would agree that the lifting up of saints in the Catholic church would be considered worship. If you give more of your prayer and worship time to anyone or anything besides Jesus, you are considered to be worshipping a false god or idol. The first and second commandments clearly state this. For instance, the rosary is made of 50 beads on which you are to say the prayer “hail Mary”. Only 5 I believe are set aside for “Our Father”. When Jesus Himself said, “I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father except through Me” doesn’t sound like it leaves a lot of room open for saints to go to God on someone’s behalf. I believe the Bible proves that Roman Catholicism is a false religion. I do have an open mind though if you want to prove me wrong. The only thing I require is that you use Scripture to do it. Thank you for your time.

 

[JackVk]

I would agree that the lifting up of saints in the Catholic church would be considered worship. If you give more of your prayer and worship time to anyone or anything besides Jesus, you are considered to be worshipping a false god or idol. The first and second commandments clearly state this. For instance, the rosary is made of 50 beads on which you are to say the prayer “hail Mary”. Only 5 I believe are set aside for “Our Father”. When Jesus Himself said, “I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father except through Me” doesn’t sound like it leaves a lot of room open for saints to go to God on someone’s behalf. I believe the Bible proves that Roman Catholicism is a false religion. I do have an open mind though if you want to prove me wrong. The only thing I require is that you use Scripture to do it. Thank you for your time.

Well, consider the Rosary mysteries. They are all centered around the life of Jesus. It may seem to the armchair observer just blindly spouting off Hail Marys, but that’s not it. With every decade, you meditate on the following events in the Gospels, while praying for a certain virtue linked to the event:

the Joyful Mysteries

1. the angel Gabriel’s annuncation to Mary (Luke 1:26-38). This is where the first quarter of the Hail Mary comes from: "Hail, Full of Grace! The Lord is with you. (Lk. 1:28). Jesus is conceived here, therefore He is present. The fruit of this mystery is humility.
2. Mary visits her cousin, Elizabeth, the mother of John the Baptist. This is where the second half of the Hail Mary comes from: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb” (Lk. 1:42). This is also where Mary gets the title Mother of God, when Elizabeth says “And how is it that the mother of my Lord should come under my roof?” (Lk. 1:43). The fruit of this mystery is love for others.
3. The Nativity of the Lord (Luke 2:1-14). The Lord Jesus Christ is born. The fruit of this mystery is zeal for the glory of God, and detachment from the things of this world.
4. the Presentation of the infant Jesus in the Temple (Luke 2:22-28). Mary and Joseph, in accordance with the law of Moses, go to the Temple in Jerusalem to have Jesus consecrated to God. Simeon, a devout man in the Temple, declares that he has seen the Messiah, who will be destined for the fall and rise of many. He also tells Mary, His mother, that her heart will be pierced by a sword, meaning she will suffer spiritually with her Son. The fruit of this mystery is a spirit of sacrifice and obedience.
5. The Finding of the child Jesus in the Temple (Luke 2:41-52). The Child Jesus is found in the Temple in Jerusalem, stating that He must remain in His Father’s house. The fruit of this mystery is zeal for the glory of God.

The sorrowful mysteries

1. Jesus’ agony in the Garden at Gethsemane. The fruit of this mystery is obedience to God’s will and true sorrow for sins.
2. Jesus is scourged at the pillar. The fruit of this mystery is a spirit of mortification and self-denial.
3. Jesus is crowned with thorns and mocked by the soldiers. The fruit of this mystery is moral courage.
4. The carrying of the cross. The fruit of this mystery is patience.
5. The crucifixion. the fruit of this mystery is perseverance and to forgive our enemies.

The glorious mysteries

1. The Resurrection. The fruit of this mystery is an increase in faith.
2. The Ascension into heaven. The fruit of this mystery is hope.
3. The descent of the Holy Spirit upon Mary and the Twelve Apostles. The fruit of this mystery is zeal for the Glory of God.
4. The Assumption of Mary into heaven. Mary is taken up into heaven by God, body and soul. The fruit of this mystery is purity of mind, body, and heart.
5. The coronation of Mary:Mary is crowned the Queen of heaven by the Holy Trinity. The fruit of this mystery is to honor the Mary, the Blessed Mother of God (Mary is the mother of Jesus. Jesus is God. Therefore, Mary is the Mother of God. She is not his origin, but she was His mother, who took care of him as a child for 30 years.

Note: # 4&5 here are not explicitly found in Scripture. See here: scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html#tradition-IV

The Luminous Mysteries:

1. The Baptism of Jesus. The fruit of this mystery is renewal of your baptismal promises.
2. Christ’s self-manifestation at Cana, where Jesus turns water into wine, at His mother’s request. The fruit of this mystery is to do whatever Jesus tells you.
3. The proclamation of the Kingdom of God. Jesus calls all to repentance. The fruit of this mystery is desire for God’s forgiveness.
4. The Transfiguration of Jesus on the mountain. The fruit of this mystery is to become a new person in Christ.
5. The institution of the Eucharist. Jesus gives us His Body and Blood, under the signs of bread and wine, at the Last Supper. The fruit of this mystery is active participation at Mass.

 

[TimothyH]

I would agree that the lifting up of saints in the Catholic church would be considered worship. If you give more of your prayer and worship time to anyone or anything besides Jesus, you are considered to be worshipping a false god or idol. The first and second commandments clearly state this. For instance, the rosary is made of 50 beads on which you are to say the prayer “hail Mary”. Only 5 I believe are set aside for “Our Father”. When Jesus Himself said, “I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father except through Me” doesn’t sound like it leaves a lot of room open for saints to go to God on someone’s behalf. I believe the Bible proves that Roman Catholicism is a false religion. I do have an open mind though if you want to prove me wrong. The only thing I require is that you use Scripture to do it. Thank you for your time.

Equating prayer with worship is necessary only because your religion has removed sacrifice from worship.

Catholic worship in spirt and truth recalls the sacrifice of Christ and re-presents that sacrifice to God the Father. Becuase Christ is truly present in Eucharist, the presentation of His sacrifice to God is as efficacious to us today and now as it was 2000 years ago in Palestine. Because Christ is present in the Eucharist, the re-presentation on a daily basis in every place on earth makes it a living and perpetual sacrifice Hiis perfect act of worship is perpetuated throughout time and space for us who live today.

Your religion has removed the living and perpetual sacrifice of Christ from worship leaving you with only what you now call worship - what is commonly called “Worship and praise” - but is really nothing more than priase and prayer. What your religion calls worship, we call prayer and praise. Your religion cannot even approach what Catholicism calls worship because your religion has removed the perfect sacrifice of Christ from daily worship. Only in mainstream Protestantism is prayer the same as worship.

Apart from Christ, the saints are nothing. Any praise, honor, prayer, veneration, or even worship given them is only done insofar as they are related to Christ. An honest Protestant would admit that he does this often, holding up great pastors, theologians, and icons of the faith, even though they are sinful humans, and giving glory to God because of who they are in relation to God.

The whole idea of a “Jesus and me” religion to the exclusion of everything else would have been absurd to Christians of the first several centures.

-Tim-

 

[JackVk]

Here is the Scriptural basis for the Marian doctrines.

The Coronation: 2 Tim 4:8 - Paul says that there is laid up for him the crown of righteousness. The saints are crowned in heaven, and Mary is the greatest saint of all.

James 1:12 - those who endure will receive the crown of life which God has promised. Mary has received the crown of life by bringing eternal life to the world.

1 Peter 5:4 - when the chief Shepherd is manifested we will receive the unfading crown of glory.

Rev. 2:10 - Jesus will give the faithful unto death the crown of life. Jesus gave Mary His Mother the crown of life.

Rev. 12:1 - Mary, the “woman,” is crowned with twelve stars. She is Queen of heaven and earth and the Mother of the Church.

Wis. 5:16 - we will receive a glorious crown and a beautiful diadem from the hand of the Lord. Mary is with Jesus forever crowned in His glory.

The Assumption:

Gen. 5:24, Heb. 11:5 - Enoch was bodily assumed into heaven without dying. Would God do any less for Mary the Ark of the New Covenant?

2 Kings 2:11-12; 1 Mac 2:58 - Elijah was assumed into heaven in fiery chariot. Jesus would not do any less for His Blessed Mother.

Psalm 132:8 - Arise, O Lord, and go to thy resting place, thou and the Ark (Mary) of thy might. Both Jesus and Mary were taken up to their eternal resting place in heaven.

2 Cor. 12:2 - Paul speaks of a man in Christ who was caught up to the third heaven. Mary was also brought up into heaven by God.

Matt. 27:52-53 - when Jesus died and rose, the bodies of the saints were raised. Nothing in Scripture precludes Mary’s assumption into heaven.

1 Thess. 4:17 - we shall be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Rev. 12:1 - we see Mary, the “woman,” clothed with the sun. While in Rev. 6:9 we only see the souls of the martyrs in heaven, in Rev. 12:1 we see Mary, both body and soul.

2 Thess. 2:15 - Paul instructs us to hold fast to oral (not just written) tradition. Apostolic tradition says Mary was assumed into heaven. While claiming the bones of the saints was a common practice during these times (and would have been especially important to obtain Mary’s bones as she was the Mother of God), Mary’s bones were never claimed. This is because they were not available. Mary was taken up body and soul into heaven.

IV. Mary is Ever Virgin
Exodus 13:2,12 - Jesus is sometimes referred to as the “first-born” son of Mary. But “first-born” is a common Jewish expression meaning the first child to open the womb. It has nothing to do the mother having future children.

Exodus 34:20 - under the Mosaic law, the “first-born” son had to be sanctified. “First-born” status does not require a “second” born.

Ezek. 44:2 - Ezekiel prophesies that no man shall pass through the gate by which the Lord entered the world. This is a prophecy of Mary’s perpetual virginity. Mary remained a virgin before, during and after the birth of Jesus.

Mark 6:3 - Jesus was always referred to as “the” son of Mary, not “a” son of Mary. Also “brothers” could have theoretically been Joseph’s children from a former marriage that was dissolved by death. However, it is most likely, perhaps most certainly, that Joseph was a virgin, just as were Jesus and Mary. As such, they embodied the true Holy Family, fully consecrated to God.

Luke 1:31,34 - the angel tells Mary that you “will” conceive (using the future tense). Mary responds by saying, “How shall this be?” Mary’s response demonstrates that she had taken a vow of lifelong virginity by having no intention to have relations with a man. If Mary did not take such a vow of lifelong virginity, her question would make no sense at all (for we can assume she knew how a child is conceived). She was a consecrated Temple virgin as was an acceptable custom of the times.

Luke 2:41-51 - in searching for Jesus and finding Him in the temple, there is never any mention of other siblings.

John 7:3-4; Mark 3:21 - we see that younger “brothers” were advising Jesus. But this would have been extremely disrespectful for devout Jews if these were Jesus’ biological brothers.

John 19:26-27 - it would have been unthinkable for Jesus to commit the care of his mother to a friend if he had brothers.

John 19:25 - the following verses prove that James and Joseph are Jesus’ cousins and not his brothers: Mary the wife of Clopas is the sister of the Virgin Mary.

Matt. 27:61, 28:1 - Matthew even refers to Mary the wife of Clopas as “the other Mary.”

Matt. 27:56; Mark 15:47 - Mary the wife of Clopas is the mother of James and Joseph.

Mark 6:3 - James and Joseph are called the “brothers” of Jesus. So James and Joseph are Jesus’ cousins.

Matt. 10:3 - James is also called the son of “Alpheus.” This does not disprove that James is the son of Clopas. The name Alpheus may be Aramaic for Clopas, or James took a Greek name like Saul (Paul), or Mary remarried a man named Alpheus.

 

[TrueLight]

Good question. But let me clarify one thing: are you suggesting that:
A) Individual Saints replaced individual Roman gods - like a St. Apollo becoming patron saint of light, for example? Or
B) that the overall concept of Saints, as understood by Catholics, seems too close for you?

If it’s A, can you be more specific? Assuming it’s B, I’ll say this. The Early Christians, in the catacombs, inscribed “Peter and Paul, pray for us” into the wall. Petitioning saints in Heaven. And why were these Christians in the catacombs in the first place? Vecause they refused to worship false gods.

There are two ways of violating the prohibition against having other gods in the Bible: the first is proclaiming something besides God as god. The second is holding something ABOVE God. Protestants often imagine a third category (honoring someone more than they deserve, or honoring someone similar to how we imagine ancient pagans might have worshipped), but that third category is unbiblical. Catholics think that the Saints work only through the power of God. It’s the difference between magic and miracles. To a non-believer, it may look like Christianity, with God, the Light of the World, and abundant miracles, is just warmed-over paganism, with a sun god and a abundant magic.

In fact, athiests tend to point to ancient pagan gods, and claim Christianity is modelled off of it. But you and I both know that those similarities are only surface-deep, an that Christians can tell the difference between a god of light, and the True God. Light of the World, Jesus Christ. We can also tell the difference between Saints and gods, and between Saints and God.

Excellent response!

One final example: the Catholic mission in Haiti hit a huge wall early on. The people wanted to continue worshipping their gods, under the guise of saints.

They are still doing that. The majority of people who are part of Santeria and Vodou still identify as Catholic and mix up both religions. And that is because it is easy to have this Saint represent a spirit. A lot of them believe in a primary God (the Good God) and then these lesser spirits who are over different things. There is a similarity.

 

[TrueLight]

(continued)

Leo XIII enumerated (28 Nov., 1897) as characteristic religious movements of our time: devotion to the Sacred Heart, to Our Lady of the Rosary, to St. Joseph, and to the Blessed Sacrament. It should be clearly understood that a church is, and always has been, dedicated to God: other dedications are annexed on an entirely different plane. Thus a church is dedicated to God in honour (for example) of the Blessed Virgin and the saints. A typical form is the following: “Deo sacrum in honorem deiparæ immaculatæ et SS. Joannis Baptistæ et Evangelistæ.” In 1190 a collegiate church in Dublin was dedicated “to God, Our Blessed Lady, and St. Patrick”. Sometimes out of several who are mentioned the patron is expressly designated, as in the dedication of a chaplainry in Arngask (Scotland) in 1527, “for the praise, glory, and honour of the indivisible Trinity, the most glorious Virgin and St. Columba, abbot, our patron of the parish”. The celestial patronage here considered will be restricted in the first instance to churches and chapels. Patrons in different countries generally present a distinctly national colouring; but the principles which have governed the selection of names will be made apparent by the examination of a few instances. In comparing place with place, the rank or precedence of patrons should be kept in view. A convenient arrangement will be the following:
Dedications

1. *]to God and the Sacred Humanity of Christ or its emblems;
   *]to the Mother of God;
   *]to the Angels;
   *]to the holy personages who introduced the New Law of Christ;
   *]to the Apostles and Evangelists;
   *]to other saints.

1. 
   Thanks Patrick.