Did Jesus really say this?

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…The church says that marriages are PRESUMED valid until proven otherwise. No mortal sin of fornication can exist where there is not full knowledge.
Mortal sin can occur, even without the usual three conditions, when there is vincible ignorance.

Catechism
1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits…
 
No he is not twisting what the OP said—I’m the OP.

Here I have repeated the post for you.

Originally Posted by horselvr View Post
I think I need to re-ask my original question.

Matthew 5:32.

Jack and Jill get married. It is the first marriage for both and it is a licit marriage.

However, Jack decides to cheat on Jill.

Did Jesus say in the verse above that it is ok for Jill to divorce Jack because of this infidelity.

My denom friend said yes Jesus said she is allowed to divorce him because of this.

Yes or no.
 
No he is not twisting what the OP said—I’m the OP.

Here I have repeated the post for you.

Originally Posted by horselvr View Post
I think I need to re-ask my original question.

Matthew 5:32.

Jack and Jill get married. It is the first marriage for both and it is a licit marriage.

However, Jack decides to cheat on Jill.

Did Jesus say in the verse above that it is ok for Jill to divorce Jack because of this infidelity.

My denom friend said yes Jesus said she is allowed to divorce him because of this.

Yes or no.
Haydock Commentary:

Matthew 5, Verse 32Excepting the cause of fornication. A divorce or separation as to bed and board, may be permitted for some weighty causes in Christian marriage; but even then, he that marrieth her that is dismissed, commits adultery. As to this, there is no exception. The bond of marriage is perpetual; and what God hath joined, no power on earth can separate. See again Matthew xix. 9. (Witham) — The know of marriage is so sacred a tie, that the separation of the parties cannot loosen it, it being not lawful for either of the parties to marry again upon a divorce. (St. Augustine, de bon. conjug. chap. vii.) (Bristow)
Matthew 19, Verse 9 And I say to you. It is worthy of remark, that in the parallel texts, St. Mark x. 2. and St. Luke xvi. 18. and St. Paul to Corinthians vii. 10. omit the exception of fornication; and also that St. Matthew himself omits it in the second part of the verse; and says absolutely, that he who shall marry her that is put away committeth adultery. It perhaps crept in here from chap. v. 23, where it is found in a phrase very similar to this, but which expresses a case widely different. Divorce is in no case admitted but in that of adultery. This is what Christ teaches in chap. v. 32, and to this the exception is referred, marked in the two texts. But in this very case the separated parties cannot contract a second marriage without again committing adultery, as we must infer, from a comparison of this text with the parallel texts of St. Mark and St. Luke. (Bible de Vence) — If we did not understand it in this manner, the case of the adulteress would be preferable to the case of her who should be put away without any crime of her own; as in this supposition, the former would be allowed to marry again, which the latter would not be allowed. (Tirinus) — St. Augustine is very explicit on this subject. See lib. 11. de adult conjug. chap. xxi. xxii. xxiv. — St. Jerome, in his high commendation of the noble matron, Fabiola, says of her: “that though she was the innocent party, for the unlawful act of marrying again, she did public penance.” (In Epitaph. Fabiolæ.) — This universally received doctrine of the Catholic Church was confirmed in the general council of Trent. (Session xxiv. canon 6.)
 
Mortal sin can occur, even without the usual three conditions, when there is vincible ignorance.

Catechism1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits…
👍
 
No he is not twisting what the OP said—I’m the OP.

Here I have repeated the post for you.

Originally Posted by horselvr View Post
I think I need to re-ask my original question.
OK. But that’s not the Original Post, eg: post #1, or else Catholic Answers has a database error.
Matthew 5:32.
Jack and Jill get married. It is the first marriage for both and it is a licit marriage.
OK. But are Jack and Jill Catholics, or merely Christians?
Were they married withing the Catholic Church Sacramentally, or not.
You didn’t specify. eg: The word “annulment” is nowhere in either OP.
However, Jack decides to cheat on Jill.
Did Jesus say in the verse above that it is ok for Jill to divorce Jack because of this infidelity.
My denom friend said yes Jesus said she is allowed to divorce him because of this.
Yes or no.
Your non denominational friend probably would not have thought that Jack and Jill were married in the Catholic church under Catholic Church rules, unless you said to your friend something you haven’t told us here.

But even if they were Catholic; in Canon law, there is still Canon 1152 which permits severing (Sunder – as in PUT ASUNDER) the conjugal duties within Catholic Teaching, and hence living apart. There is nothing which says even a Catholic must live with someone who has been abusive, or violated the marriage bond by adultery.

The word “divorce” or bill of “divorcement” merely means to send away, literally “put away”, or to ‘loose’ a person from their bonds. Hence, to not be forced to perform the sexual duties – is equivalent to divorce in the bible. This is easily seen because Jesus says adultery only happens when “divorce AND remarriage” occur. He does not say it happens just on account of ‘divorce’. Therefore, Jesus does not condemn divorce itself in that passage as always wrong. but only divorce and remarriage.

Look up the etymology of divorce, and you’ll see that it’s history is ambiguous with respect to separation:
from divertere “to separate, leave one’s husband, turn aside” (see divert). Not distinguished in English from legal separation until mid-19c.
In divorce decrees, in the U.S., there is often an additional clarification added that it is “dissolution of marriage”; and it is this second part where disputes between the Catholic Church and the State can arise when the dissolution is understood as freedom to remarry.
 
St. Paul, in the only passage where he talks about these issues refers us to the law, and therefore – by common interpretation, the Mosaic law is implied; from Genesis through Dueteronomy; eg: the Pentateuch because of who his audience was.

Canon law, or laws/decisions from church councils, were only developed to the point found in the Bible about the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15), concerning Circumcision. Laws relating to marriage, and divorce, were not codified that I am aware of at the time St. Paul spoke, so it’s not possible that Paul was referring to church law when he made his statements. Note: The law I was quoting from is the 1984 code of Canon Law for Latins; There are other codes of Canon law for ‘Oriental’ Rite churches so the things I mentioned may be different in other rites. I haven’t checked; I am only citing the Catholic Church’s code of law here.

In any event, the only place I am aware of that we have which is not a development of doctrine and where questions of infallibility arise, is scripture from St. Paul and the council of Jerusalem (which is an infallible council).

So read Acts 15 to see that no cannons specific to divorce were discussed in the fist council; and then read Romans 7:1-4 to see that Paul still referenced ‘the law’ when discussing divorce. And he is not talking about physical death, when he says “you have become dead to the law through the body of Christ.”

His logic, which refers to legal obligations regarding marriage, includes deaths of a spiritual nature.

I am not sure when the canon’s regarding the “right” of a spouse to divorce the adulterer came into effect, but none the less – it still follows the logic that Moses proposed.
If a man finds an impurity in the woman, an ‘unclean-ness’ idol worship, AKA ‘fornication’; she may be divorced/put away.

Moses did not say a woman can be divorced for every cause, but spoke in ways which suggest very strongly that she did not follow the same God that the Man did AKA was unclean on account of a sin of some kind. ( Dueteronomy 24:1 , Isaiah 50:1, Jeremiah 3:8 )

Now, with these things in mind: Reread Matthew 5:31, knowing that ‘adultery’ and ‘idolatry’ and ‘fornication’ are synonymous in the Old Testament regarding the sins of Israel with other nations.

Jesus himself could not damn, nor judge the world, if he has not the right to divorce the sinful among the Christians, his bride. Hence, divorce itself must be possible and permitted – for Jesus tells us clearly that not all who say “Lord Lord” will enter into his kingdom in heaven.

And again; Those who inherited Moses’ seat before Christ’s time, and I mean before God took the authority to bind and loose away from Israel and ‘gave it to another’, These priests of the old testament who could bind and loose, at various times (eg: for example some of the Priest-Prophets) in Israel’s history went so far as to DEMAND that divorces be effected where disparity of cult was an issue. For example, it was said symbolically in “Joshua 24:14 – ‘put away’” , and literally in Ezra 10:3.

But it was not always strictly forbidden in the law to marry these women. So, we’re seeing binding and loosing on account of sin, that took effect after the marriage had taken place to begin with.

The Passages you originally refer to, especially those found in Matthew; are very much about adultery, but that is only one of the sins which is very much in scope.
The Pharisees were explicitly trying to get Jesus killed, in exactly the same way that John the Baptist had been killed; by Herod, who had married a divorced woman while her husband were still alive. eg: Herod married Herodias, Philip’s wife – while Philip was still alive.

The scriptures tell us, plainly, that : Matthew 19:1,
That when he had finished these sayings, he departed from Galilee, and came into the coasts of Juda beyond the Jordan.

eg: Jesus went to the particular place where John the Baptist had been baptizing people and crying out against king Herod for ‘adultery’ ; and also, as a complicating factor, remember that Herod thought that Jesus was John the baptist raised from the dead. So it’s not surprising that Jesus’ enemies asked him a malicious question about divorce immediately upon arrival: Matthew 19:3

For they were expecting to trap him in his words, and be able to accuse him before Herod for repeating the charges that John had made; which if said in plain words would be grounds to have Jesus killed. But Jesus answered them subtly, forcing them to admit their own sin in order to be able to accuse him of sin; something they could not do in a court of law without loosing face before the people.
 
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