Did John Paul and Cardinal Ratzinger contradict each other?

[Genesis315]

Scotty PGH,

None of the quotes you posted contradict what the Church teaches now. Only people united to the Church are saved. Like Pope Eugene said, no heretics will go to Heaven UNLESS they unite themselves to the Church. There are material heretics (not formal heretics) who are united to the Church.

 

[Scotty_PGH]

Genesis315:

Scotty PGH,

None of the quotes you posted contradict what the Church teaches now. Only people united to the Church are saved. Like Pope Eugene said, no heretics will go to Heaven UNLESS they unite themselves to the Church. There are material heretics (not formal heretics) who are united to the Church.

I’m sorry but I can’t help but see a contradiction between these two statements:

Pope Boniface VIII in his Papal Bull Unam Sanctam (A.D. 1302): “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities (baptized, non-Catholic Christians) as means of salvation,

If the Catholic Church possess the fulness of the revealed truth about Jesus Christ, do we not do the rest of a world a disservice by seeming indifferent as to their choice of “denomination?”

Also - how does one reconcile the opinion that salvation can be found in, say, a Lutheran, Anglican or Baptist church when Christ himself says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. " We do not believe (nor do they) that these groups do in fact receive Christ in the same physical manner we do, in accordance with his commandment. Therefore, how can they find salvation?

 

[thessalonian]

Scotty PGH:

If the Catholic Church possess the fulness of the revealed truth about Jesus Christ, do we not do the rest of a world a disservice by seeming indifferent as to their choice of “denomination?”?

That is exactly what Dominus Iesus is about and the answer to your question is yes. Nevertheless we do not judge those who have not come to the fullness of the truth because we are not their judge and do not know the grace that God has given them. In Luke 12 there is the servant who knew and was treated with the unbelievers. There was also the one who did not know and recieved but few lashes. God judges us on what we have been given. Not on total doctrinal perfection. Our dillegence in seeking truth is important as well. For we cannot remain in ignorance because of the greater challenges truth puts before us. Further it is not saying that one denomination is as good as another and that all should not become Catholic. But the point is to let go and let God. He is the judge. Cornelius was a righteous and God fearing man BEFORE Peter came to him. I don’t believe the righteous and God fearing go to hell, had he died before he met Peter. Yet he had to accept the truth that Peter presented or he would have been damend.
Scotty PGH:

Also - how does one reconcile the opinion that salvation can be found in, say, a Lutheran, Anglican or Baptist church when Christ himself says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. " We do not believe (nor do they) that these groups do in fact receive Christ in the same physical manner we do, in accordance with his commandment. Therefore, how can they find salvation?

This is a very good question and one that I struggeled with for a long time. But you have to realize that there are actually 4 groups that you have to take in to account in John 6. The audience and the Apostles who accepted what Jesus said. The disciples who turned away, the Jews who rejected him before the discorse and weren’t going to accept what he said anyway. There is one other important group. Those who did not hear his words. See answer to first question. They are not accountable for what they have not been given the grace to know.

Finally I will quote another part of Dominus Iesus:

One cannot attribute to these, however, a divine origin or an ex opere operato salvific efficacy, which is proper to the Christian sacraments.88 Furthermore, it cannot be overlooked that other rituals, insofar as they depend on superstitions or other errors (cf. 1 Cor 10:20-21), constitute an obstacle to salvation.89

It is easier to convert someone who knows nothing of Christianity than one who has been taught error. Further to leave them where they are at is to leave them without the grace of the sacraments which is a great aid in their perseverence and avoidance of sin so we do not leave them where they are at. That is a sin. It is not the errors that they hold that are of any value but what they hold that is true. Hope that helps.

Blessings

 

[JKirkLVNV]

thessalonian:

That is exactly what Dominus Iesus is about and the answer to your question is yes. Nevertheless we do not judge those who have not come to the fullness of the truth because we are not their judge and do not know the grace that God has given them. In Luke 12 there is the servant who knew and was treated with the unbelievers. There was also the one who did not know and recieved but few lashes. God judges us on what we have been given. Not on total doctrinal perfection. Our dillegence in seeking truth is important as well. For we cannot remain in ignorance because of the greater challenges truth puts before us. Further it is not saying that one denomination is as good as another and that all should not become Catholic. But the point is to let go and let God. He is the judge. Cornelius was a righteous and God fearing man BEFORE Peter came to him. I don’t believe the righteous and God fearing go to hell, had he died before he met Peter. Yet he had to accept the truth that Peter presented or he would have been damend.

This is a very good question and one that I struggeled with for a long time. But you have to realize that there are actually 4 groups that you have to take in to account in John 6. The audience and the Apostles who accepted what Jesus said. The disciples who turned away, the Jews who rejected him before the discorse and weren’t going to accept what he said anyway. There is one other important group. Those who did not hear his words. See answer to first question. They are not accountable for what they have not been given the grace to know.

Finally I will quote another part of Dominus Iesus:

One cannot attribute to these, however, a divine origin or an ex opere operato salvific efficacy, which is proper to the Christian sacraments.88 Furthermore, it cannot be overlooked that other rituals, insofar as they depend on superstitions or other errors (cf. 1 Cor 10:20-21), constitute an obstacle to salvation.89

It is easier to convert someone who knows nothing of Christianity than one who has been taught error. Further to leave them where they are at is to leave them without the grace of the sacraments which is a great aid in their perseverence and avoidance of sin so we do not leave them where they are at. That is a sin. It is not the errors that they hold that are of any value but what they hold that is true. Hope that helps.

Blessings

Very, very well put!

 

[Gene_C]

Hi all,

This will take two posts. #1

Thanks to Verbum Caro for pointing out that the quotes came from news articles. I Yahoo’ed (I hardly ever Google, well, not counting Listerine in the morning!) and found the articles and traced everything back to John Paul’s original message. Here it is:

JOHN PAUL II-GENERAL AUDIENCE-Wednesday 6 December 2000

All are called to build God’s kingdom

1. In this Great Jubilee year, the basic theme of our catecheses has been the glory of the Trinity as revealed to us in salvation history. We have reflected on the Eucharist, the greatest celebration of Christ under the humble signs of bread and wine. Now we want to devote several catecheses to what we must do to ensure that the glory of the Trinity shines forth more fully in the world.

Our reflection begins with Mark’s Gospel, where we read: “Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God and saying, ‘The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel’” (Mk 1: 14-15). These are the first words Jesus spoke to the crowd: they contain the heart of his Gospel of hope and salvation, the proclamation of God’s kingdom.

From that moment on, as the Evangelists note, Jesus “went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and preaching the gospel of the kingdom and healing every disease and every infirmity among the people” (Mt 4: 23; cf. Lk 8: 1). The Apostles followed in his footsteps and with them Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles, called to “preach the kingdom of God” among the nations even to the capital of the Roman Empire (cf. Acts 20: 25; 28: 23, 31).

1. The Gospel of the kingdom links Christ with the Sacred Scriptures that, using a royal image, celebrate God’s lordship over the cosmos and history. Thus we read in the Psalter: “Say among the nations, ‘The Lord reigns! Yea, the world is established, it shall never be moved; he will judge the peoples’” (Ps 96: 10).

The kingdom is thus God’s effective but mysterious action in the universe and in the tangle of human events. He overcomes the resistance of evil with patience, not with arrogance and outcry.

For this reason Jesus compares the kingdom of God to a mustard seed, the smallest of all seeds, but destined to become a leafy tree (cf. Mt 13: 31-32), or to the seed a man scatters on the ground: “he sleeps and rises night and day, and the seed sprouts and grows, he knows not how” (Mk 4: 27).

The kingdom is grace, God’s love for the world, the source of our serenity and trust: “Fear not, little flock,” Jesus says, “for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom” (Lk 12: 32). Fears, worries and nightmares fade away, because in the person of Christ the kingdom of God is in our midst (cf. Lk 17: 21).

(continued)

 

[Gene_C]

(continued) #2 - John Paul II address

1. But man is not a passive witness to God’s entrance into history. Jesus asks us “to seek” actively “the kingdom of God and his righteousness” and to make this search our primary concern (Mt 6: 33).

To those who “supposed that the kingdom of God was to appear immediately” (Lk 19: 11), he prescribed an active attitude instead of passive waiting, telling them the parable of the 10 pounds to be used productively (cf. Lk 19: 12-27).

For his part, the Apostle Paul states that “the kingdom of God does not mean food and drink but righteousness” (Rom 14: 17) above all, and urges the faithul to put their members at the service of righteousness for sanctification (cf. Rom 6: 13, 19).

The human person is thus called to work with his hands, mind and heart for the coming of God’s kingdom into the world. This is especially true of those who are called to the apostolate and are, as St Paul says, “fellow workers for the kingdom of God” (Col4: 11), but it is also true of every human person.

1. Those who have chosen the way of the Gospel Beatitudes and live as “the poor in spirit,” detached from material goods, in order to raise up the lowly of the earth from the dust of their humiliation, will enter the kingdom of God.

“Has not God chosen those who are poor in the world,” James asks in his Letter, “to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which he has promised to those who love him?” (Jas 2: 5).

Those who lovingly bear the sufferings of life will enter the kingdom: “Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God” (Acts 14: 22; cf. 2 Thes 1: 4-5), where God himself “will wipe away every tear … and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain anymore” (Rv 21: 4).

The pure of heart who choose the way of righteousness, that is, conformity to the will of God, will enter the kingdom, as St Paul warns: “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, … nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God” (1 Cor 6: 9-10; cf. 15: 50; Eph 5: 5).

(continued) allright, it took 3 posts!

 

[Gene_C]

(continued) #3

1. All the just of the earth, including those who do not know Christ and his Church, who, under the influence of grace, seek God with a sincere heart (cf. Lumen gentium, n. 16), are thus called to build the kingdom of God by working with the Lord, who is its first and decisive builder.

Therefore, we must entrust ourselves to his hands, to his Word, to his guidance, like inexperienced children who find security only in the Father: “Whoever does not accept the kingdom of God like a child,” Jesus said, “shall not enter it” (Lk 18: 17).

With this thought we must make our own the petition: “Thy kingdom come!” A petition which has risen to heaven many times in human history like a great breath of hope: “May the peace of your kingdom come to us,” Dante exclaimed in his paraphrase of the Our Father (Purgatorio, XI, 7). A petition which turns our gaze to Christ’s return and nourishes the desire for the final coming of God’s kingdom.

This desire however does not distract the Church from her mission in this world, but commits her to it more strongly (cf. CCC, n. 2818), in waiting to be able to cross the threshold of the kingdom, whose seed and beginning is the Church (cf. Lumen gentium, n. 5), when it comes to the world in its fullness.

Then, Peter assures us in his Second Letter, “there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ” (2 Pt 1: 11).

I extend a special greeting to the group of Jubilee pilgrims from Indonesia, led by Bishop Canisius Mandagi of Ambon. I welcome the various pilgrimage groups from the United States of America. Upon all of you and your families I invoke the joy and peace of our Lord Jesus Christ. END

My debatee lifted his info from the mis-informed journalists and anti-Catholic Web sites instead of going directly to the source, the Vatican Web site.

CONCLUSION: There is absolutely NO CONTRADICTION between what Cardinal Ratizinger said and what Pope John Paul II said!

Blessings,

Gene

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Gene C.:

My debatee lifted his info from the mis-informed journalists and anti-Catholic Web sites instead of going directly to the source, the Vatican Web site.

You are welcome Gene. It was a bit. . . shifty of your opponent, no? That is the problem with just lifting whole arguments from someone else (human tradition!) which don’t even examine the source material!

good job on finding out the truth of the matter.

 

[Gene_C]

Verbum Caro,

You wouldn’t believe how many anti-Catholic sites ran with this misinformation. Well, come to think of it, you would!

Blessings,

Gene

 

[thessalonian]

Gene C.:

Verbum Caro,

You wouldn’t believe how many anti-Catholic sites ran with this misinformation. Well, come to think of it, you would!

Blessings,

Gene

There is so much of this stuff floating around. So much poor logic in it all and taking things out of context. I heard one by Hank Hanagraph a couple months ago that Pope Gelasius condemned the Assumption. The logic was that because a document that had the title assumption in it was condemned by Gelasius, the Assumption was condemned. To my knowledge the text of the document no longer exists. I wrote them and got a letter back that dealt very little with the issue I questioned and was mostly anti-catholic rhetoric.

Well I went out and found a book by one of the Protestants he is ranting about all the time, Joyce Meyers, that I think spoke of salvation by grace in the Title or something like that. So it would seem by his logic that he is against salvation by grace. Anyway the point of this is NEVER accept this crud at face value. 9 times out of 10 it is totally illegitamate. It’s sad that they don’t think that bearing false witness is bad when it’s against someone or something you don’t like. No responsibility for the material they print. No moral obligation to be honest and fair it seems by the number of times I hear this garbage on Protestant radio, stripping people of their Catholi faith under false pretenses. Very sad.