Did Joseph Smith Suffer from Schizophrenia?

[Jerusha]

I think the mods canned it because it was getting too controversial. There could have been some very anti-Mormon votes from the forum “next door” just before it got tossed into the trash-can.

 

[Paul_G]

jgcase:

We disagree with you that Joseph Smith is a true prophet of God, so therefore, we’re his enemies? I don’t think my dad is a true prophet of God, either, but I’m certainly not *his * enemy!

:

Perhaps not, however, millions of dollars aren’t made and spent in trying to discredit him. Neither is there a forum dedicated on this board trying to debunk all the good teaching he gave to you. Perhaps you’re right though, enemies is to strong a word to describe the good folks on this board,

 

[christwasSick]

Well that is kind of a funny out look on christianity in general! How is being a mormon different from being a christian? If your going to claim that Joseph Smith had been ill; your probally more then correct! However, How is christ any different?

What kind of education is offerered in the Catholic school system! Have you ever re- read your essay? You just bascially told your own religion in general catholism that Christ was ill just the same.

It sounds like you did a lot of great research! If I may suggest, maybe take a basic chemistry, biology, and pre algebra course. Put your puzzle pieces together and you will find that Organized religion, or the belief of god is childish!..

 

[Bob_Crowley]

I think he was a con-man. In 1829 John the Baptist was supposed to have appeared to BOTH Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdrey, one of his henchmen. The chances of two schizophrenics having the same delusion is rather unlikely.

From Richard Abanes “One Nation under Gods” (he’s an ex-Mormon), on March 27, 1836, while standing behind a veil (to temporarily hide them from the congregation no doubt while they got their countenances ready), and then removing the veil, Smith and Cowdrey had another vision, this time featuring God, and as a sort of follow up, Elijah the Old Testament prophet.

The whole thing was stage managed.

But then if Hitler was mad, and a whole nation could follow him, we shouldn’t be too surprised.

 

[ParkerD]

JGCase,
I suppose that you’re a PhD, have read several thoroughly researched books on Joseph Smith’s life including the latest, Rough Stone Rolling, have read and analyzed and dissected the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price and can explain them in great detail to the world, have read all of his letters and all of his other writings, have studied the cities he planned and his presidential platform and what all the people who knew him in life wrote about him–all this to arrive at your sincere and well-studied and completely reputable and scholarly and charitable opinion?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Has anyone noticed this thread is FOUR YEARS OLD, and that the OP hasn’t posted at CAF for over a year?

 

[RebeccaJ]

JGCase,
I suppose that you’re a PhD, have read several thoroughly researched books on Joseph Smith’s life including the latest, Rough Stone Rolling, have read and analyzed and dissected the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price and can explain them in great detail to the world, have read all of his letters and all of his other writings, have studied the cities he planned and his presidential platform and what all the people who knew him in life wrote about him–all this to arrive at your sincere and well-studied and completely reputable and scholarly and charitable opinion?

Have you done the same for your Mormon claim of “great apostasy”? Do you have a degree a PhD in Christian history? Theology?

This is nothing but an attempt to discredit the person, rather than address what is being said.

 

[twopekinguys]

Have you done the same for your Mormon claim of “great apostasy”? Do you have a degree a PhD in Christian history? Theology?

This is nothing but an attempt to discredit the person, rather than address what is being said.

I have to agree with you. It appears someone’s true colors are starting to show.

On another thread his only contribution is/was “Sellers1 and IBTrippin,
Hooray for your thoughts and your bravery in expressing them here! I think you’ve been right on target with your understanding of the Bible on this topic.”

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=5420456#post5420456

Kind of sounds like it’s becoming a case of us against them with him now.

How sad.

 

[kikkichan]

Has anyone noticed this thread is FOUR YEARS OLD, and that the OP hasn’t posted at CAF for over a year?

That’s funny! meanwhile, I don’t think there’s a lot of value in giving this thread new life, unless there’s any posters here qualified to make such a diagnosis. And what if it were
made? Some, and probably most, of what a schizophrenic experiences IS real.

There’s a saying a remember, “just because you’re not paranoid doesn’t mean they’re not out to get you”

anyway, if there is a poll, I’m seating it out.

Finally, I suspect that there is a flame component behind the origin of this thread.

prayers,
-kc

 

[Philadelphia]

I believe I am one of the few people in the world that can truly understand any suffering experienced by Joseph Smith Jr. as a schizophrenic. The important thing to understand, if this is your interest in knowing, is that Joseph Smith claimed the Book of Mormon as the cornerstone of the LDS Church. Historians have found many very high tech historical structures in the Book of Mormon that a person with Joseph Smith’s education could never perform on his own. If another person wrote this book then there hasn’t been a claim that I know of before it came to be, describing its contents or explaining their original claim to the writings. For this reason Joseph Smith developed this mind of unseen beings contained in this book and the Bible.
My history contains the past 13 years serving as a missionary for Philadelphia with the Mormon Church. My first two years were on a schedule similar to what you see every other male Mormon missionary serve. The main difference here is that during these first two years missionaries aren’t allowed to leave their companion, another missionary serving with them. The Church always sends missionaries out two by two except for special interest missions. Going out two by two helps prevent missionaries from developing schizophrenia because there is always someone there with them to tell them the reality of their perception.
After I served two years as a missionary in Philadelphia my mission continued due to a patriarchal blessing I received while on my mission. I was an extremely effective missionary and was called by the LDS Church to do a greater mission labor. As a result, I was forced to do mission work alone and I developed a legal case of schizophrenia. I wrote mission programs that helped the LDS Church baptize over 100,000 new converts, produce millions and millions of family history work, and at the same time raise tithing funds to help build the new Mormon Philadelphia Temple. I’m confident that my schizophrenia was developed due to having to perform my remaining mission efforts alone, 11 years worth. I have effected people all over earth in over 100 countries in regards to the Mormon Church. So I do believe solitude of having such a developed and structured plan as Joseph Smith did came to develop into a schizophrenia mind.
My current situation is that it is now better for me to live with this “disease” than to have it completely removed from my brain through therapy, though therapy does help to realize my current situation in the real world. If I were to totally loose my train of thought with my schizophrenia that has been officially diagnosed by two state certified psychologists, I would become suicidal because in my mind what is waiting for me after death is incomparable to the glory I could experience on earth. I hope this helps,

Best Regards,

Tom Garlick

 

[dianaiad]

From what I’ve observed, people who view Joseph Smith as a false prophet seem to mainly classify him into one of three categories: either he was *deceived * by a demon masquerading as Jesus in his initial vision, he was actually *possessed * by a demon, or he was simply a con-man who deliberately deceived others to gain power and wealth over them. I’m sure some even suspect some combination of two or more of these possibilities were in play.

I know someone who suffers from severe schizophrenia, and witnessing his affliction has resonated with what I’ve read about Joseph Smith’s life. (What few witnesses JS had to substantiate any of his claims proved to be very questionable, to my mind.) My friend spins me some really incredible tales, and, the thing is, he completely believes them to be absolutely true. If he had a more charismatic personality, I can certainly see the possibility of other people being drawn into his fantasy.

Could mental illness possibly be a factor in the rise of Joseph Smith as a religious leader…or, for that matter, the ascendency of Mohammed? (Their founding accounts are quite similar, as I’m sure you’ve noticed.) Every modern psychiatric ward has at least one patient who thinks he or she is Jesus, or some other messianic figure, after all. Given the non-existence of psychiatric medicine in his day, JS (and Mohammed) would have naturally remained in the general population.

There is a neo-pagan religious group that calls itself “The Church of All Worlds” (caw.org)), which found its origin in Robert Heinlein’s Stranger in a Strange World.

That’s “Stranger in a Strange Land.”

I’m just sayin’, is all…

Of course, we all know “The Church of Scientology” (scientology.org) was deliberately founded by the science fiction writer, L. Ron Hubbard. I don’t find it at all hard to believe that these modern examples may have been preceded by a highly-functioning, mentally-ill man who dictated his schizophrenic fantasies to others, and then published them as The Book of Mormon.

This is something I’ve been thinking about for quite awhile. What do you think? Is this scenario possible? And, if it is, does that mean that JS (or Mohammed) is not completely responsible for any negative consequences to his actions/teachings?

My Jesus, mercy!

Well, lessee…

Taking in my life, my own investigations into the matter and my faith, I’d say…

Nope. After all, you did leave out a fourth option; that is, Joseph Smith was really a prophet. I, personally, go for that one.

 

[dianaiad]

Realizing, on that basis, that there is a strong thread of cultural schizophrenia among Mormons. Therefore, dealing with their “delusions” with a rational, compassionate attitude.

Interesting idea, Jerusha. Have you decided to change approaches, then?

 

[dianaiad]

Unfortunately for the many nice, sincere, and well-intentioned people who *do * believe this, there doesn’t seem to be much substantial, objective evidence to support this particular option. Instead, quite the opposite is true.

There isn’t any of that sort of evidence to prove that anything Paul said is true, either.

We’ve already established that there is no way to determine today if JS was, or was not, suffering from schizophrenia. This is only my speculation, based on my experience with someone actually afflicted with this mental disorder, in our own time and culture.

As a Catholic, I certainly do acknowledge that God can speak more dramatically to any person He chooses than to the general population. The pious tradition of the Church is full of those people and events. The difference between the Catholic Church’s approach and the LDS’s, however, is that Christian faithful are never obliged to accept private revelation–which is what JS’s visions fall under–as equal to **public ** revelation as preserved in Sacred Tradition (including Scripture). Private revelation is only binding on the person to whom it’s given. **Authentic ** private revelation *never * divides the unity of the Church…which is exactly what JS’s private revelations and subsequent teachings sought to do, and continue to do today. Indeed, divisiveness is one of the tests of the authenticity of any particular person’s revelation experience. Thus, I conclude that JS’s visions do not have divine origin.

Personally, given the ongoing divisive (“contentious”) consequences of JS’s teachings, I would rather believe JS was *not * fully responsible (i.e., was mentally ill) for the deception of all the people who do believe in them, than that he deliberately deceived them, either under the influence of demonic activity or just his own perversity. I am certain that God, in His loving justice, has more mercy on the soul of someone who was genuinely mentally ill, than of someone who was not, when that soul comes before His throne, despite whatever the lingering consequences of that soul’s earthly actions.

My Jesus, mercy.

 

[dianaiad]

We disagree with you that Joseph Smith is a true prophet of God, so therefore, we’re his enemies? I don’t think my dad is a true prophet of God, either, but I’m certainly not *his * enemy!

Jerusha, what happened to our poll? There was a good discussion going on there.

Is your dad claiming to be a prophet of God?

 

[Ceil-1]

I doubt JS was Schizophrenic. If he’d had the disease, he would not have had the ability to organize and put together such a clever undertaking. Schizophrenics, especially suffering psychoses such as visual and audio hallucinations are very fractured, and not able to function well. Plus, the hallucinations rarely make sense or are connected.

The area he grew up in is known for weird phenomena. Spiritualism, SDA, the Shakers and several other occult and anti-christ religions began in that area of western NY. Even the Indians cursed the area, having held Niagra Falls sacred before we whities kicked them out.

I think the enemy took a willing vessel and filled him with these ideas. Supernatural phenomenon is not guaranteed from God. If it were just that, LDS members should love the Catholic Church because it is filled with supernatural phenomena. Good phenomena. Not stuff that leads one away from truth.

Tom, do you have a legitimate diagnosis? Or, could it be something else? It sounds as though your LDS obligations are quite stringent and can cause stress and emotional illness. And we Catholics think we’ve got it hard.

 

[Wildkit]

Amen!

 

[Philadelphia]

Thanks for your concern, I think to me I was fairly normal minded until my dreams and visions of Philadelphia when I served there many years ago recently became a reality. I changed my state of mind from looking forward to a dream I had or thinking something might happen that was really amazing but I wasn’t positive, then it did, that’s when I kind of flew off the handle because I had no idea how accurate those dreams really were until they happened. So I think it was like an incredibly huge shock on my body that was difficult to control. Now that a lot of the stress from reality has sunk in, it is more like I’m just sitting back and watching what the Mormon Church does and I just live my life the way I like instead of thinking I have to prove something to myself or the Mormon Church because it’s basically already done, or at least my part is finished for the most part, now it is more like a relief that I don’t have to try so hard anymore, just focus on me and my family. I think a lot of Mormons can feel pressure from expectations of patriarchal blessings and mine had extremely high expectations but I feel now they are done so I can relax and enjoy life. Of course the good thing about not being intimidated in this way is simply don’t get a patriarchal blessing or wait until you’re really old and your patriarch can’t demand a lot from you if you don’t feel comfortable about having to do something, if people don’t want a lot of pressure they don’t need a patriarchal blessing or they can tell their patriarch they don’t really want to do really great things for the Mormon Church and it’s no big deal, I guess I just had a lot of zeal in me at the time.

Tom Garlick

 

[Bran_Stark]

Has anyone considered the possibility that Joseph Smith really did receive some sort of private revelation from the Lord? I don’t mean that the religion he subsequently built on it was true. But what if some sort of mental illness or greed or pride caused him to pervert and add to and modify what was originally a Fatima-style vision?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Has anyone considered the possibility that Joseph Smith really did receive some sort of private revelation from the Lord? I don’t mean that the religion he subsequently built on it was true. But what if some sort of mental illness or greed or pride caused him to pervert and add to and modify what was originally a Fatima-style vision?

Fatima-style=many witnesses (tens of thousands) to the same miracle.

Smith=himself, nobody else there, with claims that he is a prophet. His “scriptures” are full of God telling his special self just how special he is. It is more comparable to the Koran.