Did JP2 abolish anathema spiritual death Church punishments?

[Steven_Merten]

On another thread a poster, claiming to be a cannon lawyer, claimed that when the Catholic Church redefined the CCC in 1984, they abolished anathema. Anathema is/was the Church’s most severe spiritually deadly punishment. In anathema Church leaders call upon the Christ given power to have Jesus hold sins bound in heaven. We know that one cannot go to heaven if Jesus holds them bound to their sins in heaven.
Throwing Stones

If even one person goes to hell due to an anathema, more life is lost (eternal life) than the combine loss of physical years of life cut short from all the physical capital punishments throughout all of history. Many Church encyclicals, dogmas and cannons are/were backed up with anathema (example: Cannon I, quoted below). It would seem to me that the absolution of Catholic Church anathema would be seen by those opposed to capital punishment as the greatest victory over the culture of death that human history has ever seen. Yet I have never heard anyone, other than this one poster, claim that JPII abolished Church anathema.

Did Pope John Paul II abolish anathema spiritual death Church punishments?

Anathema

In passing this sentence, the pontiff is vested in amice, stole, and a violet cope, wearing his mitre, and assisted by twelve priests clad in their surplices and holding lighted candles. He takes his seat in front of the altar or in some other suitable place, amid pronounces the formula of anathema which ends with these words: “Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of Our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate, so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church; we deliver him to Satan to mortify his body, that his soul may be saved on the day of judgment.”

He who dares to despise our decision, let him be stricken with anathema maranatha, i.e. may he be damned at the coming of the Lord, may he have his place with Judas Iscariot, he and his companions.

Quoted from New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia. newadvent.org/cathen/01455e.htm

**NAB MAT **16:13

Jesus replied, “Blest are you, Simon son of John! No mere man has revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. I for my part declare to you, you are ‘Rock,’ and on this rock I will build my church, and the jaws of death shall not prevail against it. I will entrust to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you declare bound on earth shall be bound in heaven; whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

CANON I .-If any one denieth, that, in the sacrament of the most holy Eucharist, are contained truly, really, and substantially, the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and consequently the whole Christ; but saith that He is only therein as in a sign, or in figure, or virtue; let him be anathema.

 

[Rosalinda]

Steve, my New American Bible, St. Joseph edition, is Mat.16:17-19 where Jesus gave the keys to Peter to bound and loose.
As for your question, personally, I’ve never heard whether anathema was abolished or not. The pronouncement of the sentence was a frightening read. Given the state of Catholic politicians in Canada who declare how devoted they are to holy Mother Church all the while trouncing over the flowers of her wisdom with a pair of steel-toed workboots I’d venture to say such a proclamation might have stopped them dead in their tracks and given them pause before so cavalierly pushing through the ssm bill C-38. Nevertheless, as strongly worded as it is there was a loophole: “we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan…so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon.” The intention it would seem is to scare someone sufficiently so that they seriously reflect and ponder their ultimate destination for all eternity. In the end, as exceptionally archaic and harsh as those words may sound to our contemporary ears their purpose is not to send someone to perdition rather it is a warning. It is better to be arrested short in one’s tracks than to be allowed to jump over the cliff with no one raising a hand or voice to stop you. Honestly speaking, the Church has never formally declared anyone was in hell - not even Judas Iscariot himself; whereas, many times she has declared the saints who have definitively arrived in heaven. I challenge you to find documentation to the contrary. Regardless or whether anathama exists or not, people go to Hell because they chose to.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Rosalinda:

Steve, my New American Bible, St. Joseph edition, is Mat.16:17-19 where Jesus gave the keys to Peter to bound and loose.
As for your question, personally, I’ve never heard whether anathema was abolished or not. The pronouncement of the sentence was a frightening read. Given the state of Catholic politicians in Canada who declare how devoted they are to holy Mother Church all the while trouncing over the flowers of her wisdom with a pair of steel-toed workboots I’d venture to say such a proclamation might have stopped them dead in their tracks and given them pause before so cavalierly pushing through the ssm bill C-38. Nevertheless, as strongly worded as it is there was a loophole: “we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan…so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon.” The intention it would seem is to scare someone sufficiently so that they seriously reflect and ponder their ultimate destination for all eternity. In the end, as exceptionally archaic and harsh as those words may sound to our contemporary ears their purpose is not to send someone to perdition rather it is a warning. It is better to be arrested short in one’s tracks than to be allowed to jump over the cliff with no one raising a hand or voice to stop you.

Hello Rosalinda,

Yes, I agree that the Church has the power to bind and to loost and they desire that someone repent. Anathema’s goal, like state physical capital punishment, is not to take revenge but to detter would be culprits from committing crimes which cause harm. The Church would much rather loost soul damning anathema from a repentant soul than to have a person go to hell due to Jesus sworn oath to bind a man to sin in heaven, and therefore eternal death, because an Apostolic Successor called upon Him to do so.

Rosalinda:

Honestly speaking, the Church has never formally declared anyone was in hell - not even Judas Iscariot himself; whereas, many times she has declared the saints who have definitively arrived in heaven. I challenge you to find documentation to the contrary.

I think modern day clergy like to claim they know of no souls in hell but I do not believe they say this from an excathadra or infaillible possition. Pope Benedict XIV certianly states that Judas Iscariot is in hell from the excathadra position of a Church Bull. How are we to decide which Pope is telling the truth? The excathadra Papal statements of the past or modern Popes who state they know of no one in hell without using excathadra or infailability to back up their statements and counter the excathadra statments of past Popes.

AnathemaBenedict XIV (1740-58–De Synodo dioecesana X, i) cites the anathema maranatha formulated by the Fathers of the Fourth Council of Toledo against those who were guilty of the crime of high treason: "He who dares to despise our decision, let him be stricken with anathema maranatha, i.e. may he be damned at the coming of the Lord, may he have his place with Judas Iscariot, he and his companions. There is frequent mention of this anathema maranatha in the Bulls of erection for abbeys and other establishments.

Quoted from New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia newadvent.org/cathen/01455e.htm

 

[Steven_Merten]

Rosalinda:
Regardless or whether anathama exists or not, people go to Hell because they chose to.

Hello again Rosalinda,

So do you believe that anathema, or the loosting of it, effects whether a person goes to hell or not? Do you believe a person can just disregard it as having no effect on their eternal salvation? Do you believe that an Apostolic Successor calling upon Jesus to bind your soul to sin in heaven or loost your soul from sin in heaven has no effect on whether or not you go to heaven?

Anathema****in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of Our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians**, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth**

Quoted from New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia newadvent.org/cathen/01455e.htm

NAB MAT 16:17

Jesus replied, “Blest are you, Simon son of John! No mere man has revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. I for my part declare to you, you are ‘Rock,’ and on this rock I will build my church, and the jaws of death shall not prevail against it. I will entrust to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you declare bound on earth shall be bound in heaven; whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Then he strictly ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.**NAB REV 1:16 **

A sharp, two-edged sword came out of his mouth, and his face shone like the sun at its brightest. When I caught sight of him I fell down at his feet as though dead, he touched me with his right hand and said: “There is nothing to fear. I am the First and the Last and the One who lives. Once I was dead but now I live-- forever and ever. I hold the keys of death and the nether world.”

NAB ISA 11:4 The Rule of Immanuel

He shall strike the ruthless with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall slay the wicked.​

**NAB JOH 20:20 **

At the sight of the Lord the disciples rejoiced. “Peace be with you,” he said again. “As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” Then he breathed on them and said: “Recieve the Holy Spirit. If you forgive men’s sins, they are forgiven them; if you hold them bound, they are held bound.” NAB MAT 5:22

What I say to you is: everyone who grows angry with his brother shall be liable to judgement; any man who uses abusive language toward his brother shall be** answerable to the Sanhedrin,** and if he holds him in contempt he risks the fires of Gehenna. **NAB MAT 18:17 **

“If he ignores them, refer it to the church . If he ignores even the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. I assure you, whatever you declare bound on earth shall be held bound in heaven, and whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be held loosed in heaven.”

 

[Steven_Merten]

Rosalinda:

Honestly speaking, the Church has never formally declared anyone was in hell - not even Judas Iscariot himself; whereas, many times she has declared the saints who have definitively arrived in heaven. I challenge you to find documentation to the contrary.

Hello again Rosalinda,

I wanted to add that scriptures tell us that Korah is in hell for schism.

NAB JUD 1:10

These people, however, not only revile what they have no knowledge of but are corrupted through the very things they know by instinct, like brute animals. So much the worse for them! They have taken the road Cain took. They have abandoned themselves to Balaam’s error for pay, and like Korah they perish in rebellion. These men are blotches on your Christian banquets. They are wild ocean waves, splashing their shameless deeds abroad like foam, or shooting stars for **whom the thick gloom of darkness has been reserved forever.**NAB NUM 16

Korah, son of Izhar, son of Kohath, son of Levi [and Dathan and Abiram, sons of Eliab, son of Pallu, son of Reuben] took two hundred and fifty Israelites who were leaders in the community, members of the council and men of note. **They stood before Moses and Aaron, to whom they said, “Enough from you! The whole community, all of them, are holy; the LORD is in their midst. Why then should you set yourselves over the LORD’s congregation?” **

When Moses heard this, he fell prostrate. Then he said to Korah and to all his band, “May the LORD make known tomorrow morning who belongs to him and who is the holy one and whom he will have draw near to him! Whom he chooses, he will have draw near him. Do this: take your censers [Korah and all his band] and put fire in them and place incense in them before the LORD tomorrow. He whom the LORD then chooses is the holy one. Enough from you Levites!”…

…Korah. Moses said to Korah, “You and all your band shall appear before the LORD tomorrow–you and they and Aaron too. Then each of your two hundred and fifty followers shall take his own censer, put incense in it, and offer it to the LORD; and you and Aaron, each with his own censer, shall do the same.” So then all took their censers, and laying incense on the fire they had put in them, they took their stand by the entrance of the meeting tent, the glory of the LORD appeared to the entire community, and the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, “Stand apart from this band, that I may consume them at once.” But they fell prostrate and cried out, “O God, God of the spirits of all mankind, will one man’s sin make you angry with the whole community?” The LORD answered Moses, “Speak to the community and tell them: Withdraw from the space around the Dwelling” [of Korah, Dathan and Abiram].
Punishment of Dathan and Abiram.Moses, followed by the elders of Israel, arose and went to Dathan and Abrim. Then he warned the community, “Keep away from the tents of these wicked men and do not touch anything that is theirs: otherwise you too will be swept away because of all their sins.” When Dathan and Abiram had come out and were standing at the entrance of their tents with their wives and sons and little ones, Moses said, “This is how you shall know that it was the LORD who sent me to do all that I have done, and that it was not I who planned it: if these men die an ordinary death, merely suffering the fate common to all mankind, then it was not the LORD who sent me. But if the LORD does something entirely new, and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them alive down into the nether world, with all belonging to them, then you will know that these men have defied the LORD.” No sooner had he finished saying all this than the ground beneath them split open, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them and their families [and all of Korah’s men] and all their possessions. They went down alive to the nether world with all belonging to them; the earth closed over them, and they perished from the community. But all the Israelites near them fled at their shrieks, saying, “The earth might swallow us too!”

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Steve:

It seems as if you knew the answer to at least one of your questions befor you asked it. Regarding whether Pope John Paul II “Abolished the ‘Spiritual Death’”, I don’t think even the Pope could “Abolish” that, but he could decide not to use the authority given to him by God in his Apostolic office. That’s an option open to every Pope.

There may have been a couple of times when Popes and His Legates (the Excommunication of the Patriarch of Constantinople in 1054 comes to mind) would have done better holding their tongues. But I don’t think our modern era is one of those times.

Rosalinda, I know that you were probably taught what you said by some well meaning priest. We don’t like to think that there are a couple of people who are definitely in hell. It seems somehow to offend mercy, but why else would we need Christ’s sacrifice if actually going to hell wasn’t a real possibility? Why else would Jesus need to suffer what he suffered if no one was really going there?

Jesus really had to suffer what He suffered because we most definitely can put ourselves in that horrible place.

Blessed are they who act to save the Innocent, Michael

 

[Rosalinda]

Steve, The New Code of Canon Law, 1983, has a whole chapter titled, ‘Sanctions of the Church’ and since that is the one in effect for the Latin rite those are the ones pertinent to our discussion. While I am no canon lawyer and I only did a cursory reading, for your interest, the word ‘anathema’ was not used.

The Apostolic Constitution of PJPII which accompanied the New Code states “the purpose of the Code is not in any way to replace faith, grace, charisms and above all charity in the life of the Church.” My understanding was the person who has been put on notice that his salvation is in jeopardy may seek the sacrament of reconcilation, do penance and renounce his sins. The church has even made provisions for the penitent in grave danger of death to be absolved from his sins by a priest, even a priest who lacks the faculty to hear confession. (canon 976)

Now, while hell most certainly does exist, it is none of my business to speculate who went there, as I am quite satisfied to wait until the day of final judgement when the fate of everyone will be revealed. Until then we live in the era of mercy and our mission is the same mission of the Church: to save souls.

Jesus asked, “What is your opinion? If a man has a hundred sheep and one of them goes astray; will he not leave the ninety-nine in the hills and go in search of the stray? And if he finds it, amen, I say to you, he rejoices more over it than over the ninety-nine that did not stray. In just the same way, it is not the will of your heavenly Father that one of these little one be lost.” (Matthew 18: 12-14)

The CCC, paragraph 605, has this most beautiful quotation from the Council of Quiercy in 853. “There is not, never has been, and never will be a single human being for whom Christ did not suffer.”

 

[Rosalinda]

"I have opened My Heart as a living fountain of mercy. Let all souls draw life from it. Let them approach this sea of mercy with great trust. Sinners will attain justification, and the just will be confirmed in good. Whoever places his trust in My mercy will be filled with My divine peace at the hour of death.

My daughter, do not tire of proclaiming My mercy. In this way you will refresh this Heart of Mine, which burns with a flame of pity for sinners."

from **Mercy My **Mission, the Life of St. Faustina Kowalska by sister Sophia Michalenko, Marian Press, 1995.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Rosalinda:

Steve, The New Code of Canon Law, 1983, has a whole chapter titled, ‘Sanctions of the Church’ and since that is the one in effect for the Latin rite those are the ones pertinent to our discussion. While I am no canon lawyer and I only did a cursory reading, for your interest, the word ‘anathema’ was not used.

Hello Rosalinda,

I think you are hitting on the heart of the question.

Here is what the other poster quoted to me.

Canon 6:" §1. When this Code takes force, the following are abrogated: 1) the Code of Canon Law promulgated in 1917; 2) other universal or particular laws contrary to the prescripts of this Code unless other provision is expressly made for particular laws; 3) any universal or particular penal laws whatsoever issued by the Apostolic See, unless they are contained in this Code; 4) other universal disciplinary laws regarding matter which this Code completely reorders. §2. Insofar as they repeat former law, the canons of this Code must be assessed also in accord with canonical tradition."

The Catechism, the Code and the Documents of the Council can be found in English translation at vatican.va/archive/index.htm.

Quoted from forum link forums.catholic-questions.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=805389

Has Pope John Paul abolished the Church’s use of the Christ given “keys to the Kingdom” to bind culprits to sin, and therefore eternal death, through anathema?

Is this a good thing?

One would think that if “**we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate” **
has been
"the following are abrogated… any universal or particular penal laws whatsoever issued by the Apostolic See, unless they are contained in this Code;"
that this would be the greatest victory against the culture of death since Christ died on the cross. One would think there would be a little more talk or even jubilation over this by those opposed to capital punishment. Did Pope John Paul II really abolish spiritual death Church anathema?

Also of interest. Is it far safer to be a baptized Protestant within the bosom of the Catholic Church for salvation, as is now Church teaching, but outside Papal authority of Church punishments? Is this fair? Is the Pope himself surrendering His Christ given authority over all Christ’s followers to now only using his authority on Catholics? Popes used to claim no salvation outside the Church. Now, it seems, there is more salvation outside the Church because the Pope has put Protestants outside the authority Christ gave him.

However, though, even today, excommunication, interdict and suspension can be incurred by and/or inflicted on heretics, schismatics and apostates. As canon 11 provides, only on Catholics though: “Merely ecclesiastical laws bind those who have been baptized in the Catholic Church or received into it, possess the sufficient use of reason and, unless the law expressly provides otherwise, have completed seven years of age.”

Excommunication, interdict and suspension are merely ecclesiastical laws, and not inflicted on or incurred by non Catholics.

Any more thoughts on what is going on with Church punishments?

 

[Rosalinda]

Steve, I suggest you read the writing of Pope John Paul II to better understand him. The following hyperlink will take you to his 1980 encyclical Dives in Misericordia - The Mercy of God. http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_jp02dm.htm

Indeed, it is great news that the mission of the Church is the same as the mission of Jesus: one of mercy. “But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord, one day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like one day. The Lord does not delay His promises, as some regard “delay” but He is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.” 2Peter 3:8-9

 

[BlindSheep]

Hmm - maybe I’m just ignorant, but I don’t really see how the anathema amounts to a spiritual “death penalty”, since presumably anyone anathematized would already be guilty of mortal sin, and therefore having already commited spiritual “suicide”, and bound for Hell if they did not repent, making the anathema merely a official pronouncement or definintion of the already existing state of spiritual death.

 

[Rosalinda]

Steve, the answer to your questions concerning #1.anathema #2. spiritual death #3. Church punishment, can be found if you reread the formula from Pope Zachary 741-52 and the rest of the text which was truncated from your original post. It shows that excommunication and the public act of pronouncing anathema were done with the same intention the Church has always had which is correction of the sinner that he might be saved.“Although he is delivered to Satan and his angels, he can still, and is even bound to repent. The Pontifical gives the form for absolving him and reconciling him with the Church. The promulgation of the anathema with such solemnity is well calculated to strike terror to the criminal and bring him to a state of repentance, especially if the Church adds to it the ceremony of the Maranatha.”

Your interpretation that the Church abuses the power of the keys of the Kingdom entrusted to her in order to “bind culprits to sin, and therefore eternal death” is quite simply a misinterpretation. That is why I recommend you prayerfully and carefully read the writings of John Paul II which are full of references to scripture and Vatican II documents, in particular, The Mercy of God for which a link has already been provided.

As for your statement about salvation outside the Church Pope Benedict XVI wrote an excellent document about five years ago while still Cardinal and head of the Sacred Congregation for Doctrine and the Faith, “Dominus Jesus” which would also help you to put this historical debate in proper perspective.

Blindsheep has correctly pointed out mortal sin is spiritual suicide and reinforces the teaching of the Catholic Catechism that people of their own free will separate themselves from the life and love of God. To suggest otherwise reflects a poor understanding of the teachings of the Church at a very fundamental level.

“To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from Him forever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called ‘hell’.” The Catholic Catechism of the Church paragraph 1033 released in English in 1994.

 

[Steven_Merten]

BlindSheep:

Hmm - maybe I’m just ignorant, but I don’t really see how the anathema amounts to a spiritual “death penalty”, since presumably anyone anathematized would already be guilty of mortal sin, and therefore having already commited spiritual “suicide”, and bound for Hell if they did not repent, making the anathema merely a official pronouncement or definintion of the already existing state of spiritual death.

Hello BlindSheep,

So if Pope John Paul II pulled anathema off failure to believe in real presence, does not believing in real presence still cause “spiritual suicide”? Did Jesus change His mind on the need to believe in real presence? Did Pope John Paul II use the Christ given “keys to the Kingdom”, the power to bind and loost, to, in any way, alter the spiritual punishment for not believing in real presence in the Eucharist?

CANON I
.-If any one denieth, that, in the sacrament of the most holy Eucharist, are contained truly, really, and substantially, the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and consequently the whole Christ; but saith that He is only therein as in a sign, or in figure, or virtue; let him be anathema.

 

[Rosalinda]

Steve, you don’t need a Pope to answer that one. Listen to the words of Jesus in John 6:48-58 (NAB)

Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died; this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world." The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?” Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.”

For a Catholic to deny this great “mystery of Faith” it would be “spiritual suicide.” On the other hand, non- Catholics are in a different situation as Cameron Lansing has already pointed out to you. As for your conclusion, “there is more salvation outside the Church because the Pope has put Protestants outside the authority Christ gave him” read the declaration from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith entitled, “Dominus Iesus” On the Unicity and Salvific Universality of Jesus Christ and the Church released in August 2000:

"In fact, the action of Christ and the Spirit outside the Church’s visible boundaries must not be excluded." "separated Churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of **salvation.**For the spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church."

John Paul II ratified and confirmed this declaration written by then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger which pretty well means the full weight of the “keys of kingdom” apply after this promulgation.

If you have further questions, “Dominicae Cenae”- On the mystery and worship of the Eucharist written by JPII in 1980, should answer them.

 

[cameron_lansing]

Steven Merten:

On another thread a poster, claiming to be a cannon lawyer

Checking out bona fides is important today, Steven, especially for faithful Catholics. You have referenced me and cited me in this thread, but not responded further to the other thread, forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=65354. You have largely repeated here what you said there. I hope your research will progress to the point so that you might advance the discussion for our common benefit.

For the sake of your clarification, you can locate me via dioceseoflansing.org/, then find tribunal on the right side bar. Click to go to that site, then find staff on the right side bar and click again. The JCL after my name means licentiate in canon law. You may also consult the Official Catholic Directory (P.J. Kenedy) under Diocese of Lansing. Your parish should have a copy.

God bless.

 

[BlindSheep]

Steven Merten:

Hello BlindSheep,

So if Pope John Paul II pulled anathema off failure to believe in real presence, does not believing in real presence still cause “spiritual suicide”?

Not doubt, but a deliberate rejection of this doctrine, yes.

Did Jesus change His mind on the need to believe in real presence?

No, but the type of discipline needed to promote moral behavior may be different in different times.

Did Pope John Paul II use the Christ given “keys to the Kingdom”, the power to bind and loost, to, in any way, alter the spiritual punishment for not believing in real presence in the Eucharist?

The anathema was not for not believing - it was for teaching unbelief. If a Catholic in the past were to preach against the real presence he would be anathema, but a Catholic today doing the same would still be giving scandal, and, assuming it was with full knowledge and consent that he did it, would commit a mortal sin.

CANON I.-If any one denieth, that, in the sacrament of the most holy Eucharist, are contained truly, really, and substantially, the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and consequently the whole Christ; but saith that He is only therein as in a sign, or in figure, or virtue; let him be anathema.

 

[Steven_Merten]

cameron_lansing:

Checking out bona fides is important today, Steven, especially for faithful Catholics. You have referenced me and cited me in this thread, but not responded further to the other thread, forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=65354. You have largely repeated here what you said there. I hope your research will progress to the point so that you might advance the discussion for our common benefit.

For the sake of your clarification, you can locate me via dioceseoflansing.org/, then find tribunal on the right side bar. Click to go to that site, then find staff on the right side bar and click again. The JCL after my name means licentiate in canon law. You may also consult the Official Catholic Directory (P.J. Kenedy) under Diocese of Lansing. Your parish should have a copy.

God bless.

Hello Cameron,

I am doing some research through this new thread. I thought the issue is a big one, damning/undamning of souls by Church leaders, and needed a thread of its own to address it. As I understood your final post on the other thread, you were not going to respond again until after I did research. Glad to have your responses anyway. I was interested to know how other ordinary Catholics understand all this. I also thought the new thread might bring in other experts for thier (name removed by moderator)ut.

You have now given evidence that you are a cannon lawyer. I hope their are no hard feelings for the “claiming to be a canon lawyer” in my above statement.

cameron_lansing:

Steven,

Once you relate the fruits of your inquiry into those canons of the current code of canon law and identify the source of the canons which you cited, as I requested, it will become useful for me to respond to your comments but again not before that.

 

[Steven_Merten]

BlindSheep:

The anathema was not for not believing - it was for teaching unbelief. If a Catholic in the past were to preach against the real presence he would be anathema, but a Catholic today doing the same would still be giving scandal, and, assuming it was with full knowledge and consent that he did it, would commit a mortal sin.

Hello BlindSheep,

Is it fair to say that their are quite a few more eternal death mine fields being a Catholic than being a Protestant? This due to the modern Church teaching that Protestant baptism brings one into the bosom of the Catholic Church yet Popes hold no “keys to the Kingdom” mortal sin penalties binding on Protestants?

Actually it was a new Catholic convert on another thread who brought this to my attention. He was discouraged. Not that he did not believe in real presence, but that now, as a Catholic, he had all these spiritual death punishments hanging over his head which the Church teaches he did not have as a Protestant. Of course with automatic excommunication for leaving the Church and going back to his Protestant religion, he could not do this either.

Is it fair to say there are quite a few mortal sins Popes have bound on Catholics which the Church teaches Protestants are free from? It seems that it is far safer to remain a baptised Protestant securely in the bosom of the Catholic Church without any threat of papal bindings which remove, Catholics only, from the bosom of the Catholic Church.

 

[cameron_lansing]

Steven Merten:

Hello Cameron,

I am doing some research through this new thread. I thought the issue is a big one, damning/undamning of souls by Church leaders, and needed a thread of its own to address it. As I understood your final post on the other thread, you were not going to respond again until after I did research. Glad to have your responses anyway. I was interested to know how other ordinary Catholics understand all this. I also thought the new thread might bring in other experts for thier (name removed by moderator)ut.

You have now given evidence that you are a cannon lawyer. I hope their are no hard feelings for the “claiming to be a canon lawyer” in my above statement.

There were none to begin with. I thought you raised a legitimate point and people have a right to know those things!.

 

[Rosalinda]

Steve, It is sad that a convert to Catholicism would feel like he had “spiritual death punishments hanging over his head.” No doubt great sacrifice was entailed with his decision to enter the Church in the first place. Nevertheless, as he still believes in the Eucharistic Mystery what can he do but follow the example of our first pope.

"Jesus asked the remaining disciples, “Do you also wish to go away?” And it was the first Peter who gave the Lord an answer that is both the first and the shortest creed in holy Scripture: “Lord, to whom can we go? You have the words of eternal life” (John 6:68). Peter’s creed is also our own.** “Lord, to whom can we go? You have the words of eternal life.”**
Taken from Cardinal Meisner’s sermon Aug. 16 to the World Youth gathered in Cologne.