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PazzoGrande
Guest
If God hardened Pharaoh’s heart so that Pharoah would keep the Jews enslaved, does this mean that he did not have free will, and does this mean that he was not morally culpable for what he did to them?
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Oumashta
Guest
According to the little notes at the bottom of my Douay-Rheims Bible:
I shall harden: Not by being the efficient cause of his sin; but by withdrawing from him, for his just punishment, the dew of grace that might have softened his heart; and so suffering him to grow harder and harder.
Basically He didn’t make him hardened, God just withdrew His grace from Him.
I shall harden: Not by being the efficient cause of his sin; but by withdrawing from him, for his just punishment, the dew of grace that might have softened his heart; and so suffering him to grow harder and harder.
Basically He didn’t make him hardened, God just withdrew His grace from Him.
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Della
Guest
Haydock Commentary agrees:
I shall harden, &c.; not by being the efficient cause of his hardness of heart, but by permitting it; and by withdrawing grace from him, in punishment of his malice; which alone was the proper cause of his being hardened. (Challoner) — He took occasion even from the miracles to become more obdurate.
If someone persists in their sin and will not listen, God allows him/her to go his own way, and that way leads farther and farther from God and into darkness. In this case it was fatal for pharaoh’s people and his own son.
I shall harden, &c.; not by being the efficient cause of his hardness of heart, but by permitting it; and by withdrawing grace from him, in punishment of his malice; which alone was the proper cause of his being hardened. (Challoner) — He took occasion even from the miracles to become more obdurate.
If someone persists in their sin and will not listen, God allows him/her to go his own way, and that way leads farther and farther from God and into darkness. In this case it was fatal for pharaoh’s people and his own son.
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MarcoPolo
Guest
Some passages say God hardened Pharoah’s heart. Other passages say Pharoah hardened his own heart. For instance:*Ex. 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was a respite, he hardened his heart, and would not listen to them
Ex. 8:32 But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and did not let the people go.
Ex. 9:34 But when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunder had ceased, he sinned **yet again, and hardened his heart, he and his servants.***So when we see it say “God hardened Pharoah’s heart” in surrounding verses, we could understand it, for instance, that God confirmed Pharoah in his own hardness, or simply that God in His sovereignty has in some sense power over what transpires in creation. But there are verses that assign the free action to Pharoah.
Ex. 8:32 But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and did not let the people go.
Ex. 9:34 But when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunder had ceased, he sinned **yet again, and hardened his heart, he and his servants.***So when we see it say “God hardened Pharoah’s heart” in surrounding verses, we could understand it, for instance, that God confirmed Pharoah in his own hardness, or simply that God in His sovereignty has in some sense power over what transpires in creation. But there are verses that assign the free action to Pharoah.
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fhansen
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This paragraph from the Catechism should shed some light on the Catholic position. Man’s will is never uninvolved.
600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: "In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place."395 For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.396
600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: "In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place."395 For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.396
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chosen_people
Guest
If God has hardened Pharaoh’s heart then He has denied Pharaoh his free will. Without free will, how can Pharaoh be responsible for his sins against the Jewish nation? Without free will, what are the purpose of the plagues? If they are to change Pharaoh’s attitudes and make him release the nation of Israel from slavery, then why harden his heart to prevent this from happening? If God has hardened Pharaoh’s heart, then the plagues become not a source for bringing about the release of the Jews from slavery but an unavoidable preordained punishment of the Egyptian people.
If we study the Jewish sages on this subject, I believe we can see three different approaches. I personally define these three approaches as the weak argument, the strong argument and the interesting argument.
The weak argument: According to this approach when we speak of God hardening Pharaoh’s heart it in no way implies that God has denied Pharaoh his free will. On the contrary, this passage emphasizes Pharaoh’s free will. When we speak of God hardening Pharaoh’s heart we are merely saying that God was the source of the plagues as He is the source of all things. Pharaoh hardened his heart to God’s plagues and refused to let the children of Israel go. So when we speak of God hardening Pharaoh’s heart, what we are really saying is that Pharaoh hardened his heart to the plagues brought by God.
The strong argument: God indeed hardened Pharaoh’s heart, but this did not deny Pharaoh his free will, but allowed Pharaoh to have free will. Had God not done this, then Pharaoh would not have been acting from free will but merely under the coercion of the plagues. By God hardening Pharaoh’s heart, He gave Pharaoh the ability and strength to freely exercise his free will in deciding how to react to the plagues.
As an aside, it should also be noted that the plagues cannot be seen as some sort of arbitrary act against Pharaoh in which the Egyptian people suffered. The plagues allowed for the punishment and contrition of the Egyptian people which would allow repentance and forgiveness for the cruel and sinful acts of the Egyptians against the nation of Israel while in Egypt.
The interesting argument: According to this argument, there comes a time when God has given a person so many chances to repent and the person has rejected so many of these chances, that God is no longer willing to forgive (take for example Sodom and Gomorrah). According to this argument, after the first five plagues God was no longer willing to give Pharaoh any additional chances for forgiveness and that is why at that point God hardened Pharaoh’s heart.
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chosen_people
Guest
In the Jewish scriptures any concept of “predestination” (though of course elements of our live are predetermined) is an anathema. Free will is at the core of Jewish thought. Rather, it is that God, existing in all places and in all times, will know how that person ultimately exercised their free will. This has ramifications when God tests someone (such as Abraham with Isaac) but that is a subject for another thread.
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fhansen
Guest
Yes, I believe that, in the end, the non-free will position espoused by many of the Reformers amounts to an evil abnegation of moral responsibility, posing as humility before the sovereignty of God with an over-emphasis on man’s weakened will and incapacity to do the right thing.
meltzerboy
New member
Joseph ibn Caspi, who was a student of Maimonides, interpreted this according to what you label the “weak” argument, and believed this was Maimonides’ interpretation as well. IOW, G-d, who is the ultimate cause of everything, gave Pharaoh a hardened heart in the sense of a stubborn personality and inability to behave according to a more rational intellect. Therefore the verse which states that G-d hardened Pharaoh’s heart does not mean that G-d changed Pharaoh’s heart, but rather G-d allowed Pharaoh to behave in keeping with his own personality traits endowed by G-d, which, of course, led to trouble for the Pharaoh and the Egyptian people. The stubborn personality of Pharaoh meant his free-will decisions would lead to his eventual downfall.
I also like what you call the “strong” argument.
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fhansen
Guest
The Catholic position also acknowledges the blindness of people, as per the Catechism paragraph I quoted. Also relevant is Jesus’ statement regarding His tormentors and executioners during the crucifixion, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they are doing.”
Evil is freely perpetrated in this world and must be acknowledged as such, but it is also mitigated by human ignorance and weakness. The Catholic teaching, in general terms, based on the concept of mortal sin, is that serious moral evil committed continuously, deliberately, and with full knowledge will eventually lead one to separation from God, i.e. death, eternal death, aka* hell*.
But it’s also understood that God is ultimately working everything for His plan of salvation for man, bringing greater good out of the evil that the abuse of human freedom results in, and that, not knowing the beginning from the end but cognizant of God’s boundless justice and mercy, we can’t be certain of the fate of Pharaoh-or of Judas for that matter. And we know God judges by the heart, that not all people share the same advantages/opportunities as others; He’ll judge us by what we do with what we’ve been given.
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Catholic_Dude
Guest
Rashi - the Medieval Jewish Sage - points out that the Hebrew (and actually Greek as well) use two different words when speaking of God “hardening” versus the passages where it says Pharaoh “hardened” his heart. This cannot be an accident.
Rashi and others understood this to mean God “strengthened” Pharaoh’s heart, meaning these great signs would make any normal man wet themselves, but Pharaoh’s heart was emboldened to not cower back in fear and thus be able (have the chance) to snub his nose at God (or not).
Rashi and others understood this to mean God “strengthened” Pharaoh’s heart, meaning these great signs would make any normal man wet themselves, but Pharaoh’s heart was emboldened to not cower back in fear and thus be able (have the chance) to snub his nose at God (or not).
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1Rich23
Guest
In the first chapter of Exodus, the Pharaoh (and the Pharaohs following him) and the people of Egypt came under the curse of God for “cursing” the Children of Israel by enslaving them and killing the boy children. The promise to them through Abraham was “I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you.” Under the curse of God they had no free will, but God still in His mercy gave the Pharaoh nine opportunities to let the people go if he would. Then God finally hardened the Pharaoh’s heart and used the tenth plague to glorify Himself. We don’t have curses like that today.
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Pax
Guest
Great post:thumbsup:
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Pax
Guest
Nick,
As always…I have once again got something from you to add to my base of knowledge.
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