Did Pope Benedict pray toward Mecca?

[TimothyH]

There is a distinction to be made between pre-Christian religions like paganism and post-Christian religions like islam. The difference between say pagan religions at the time of the apostles and with islam is that the pagans did not hear of Christ, and their pagan belief system made no comment within it concerning Jesus as the Christ. Even you said as long as it does not cause scandal. Some of the passages in the koran and some of the teaching of islam are scandalous especially concerning the nature of Jesus. (and one should note neo-paganism found in the modern world is a post-Christian belief system.)

This is a very good point. I had to read it a twice and think about it at some length. I think my response would be to agree generally. Ignorance is not the same as denial and we do have to take into account the very real possiblity of scandal.

Again, I go back to the OP about the Holy Father praying at a mosque. Being the vicar of Christ and all, he has a pretty good support structure and I personally see no problem with it. Perhapse the vatican could have explained it better but I’m not sure that would have made a difference as a practical matter.

I have brought my children here in the Atlanta suburbs to Northpoint Community Church, one of the biggest Evangelical Churches in existance, to observe what Evangelical worship was like. We walked out and I asked my daughter what she thought. At twelve years old she said, “It’s a big self help group” in a very disapproving tone. She is strong however, having been through Catholic school run by good Dominical Sisters since kindergarden. I think that’s the difference - our level of spiritual maturity.

-Tim-

 

[hn160]

I’ll warn you at the outset that I am going to be blunt.

As Stylites stated, the official teaching of the Magesterium of the Catholic Church is that insofar as every religion, even pagan religions, try to explain creation, the meaning of life, and to discover if there is something more to creation than an accident of physics, they all seek the truth.

The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life." (CCC 843)

Even Wicca believes that there are incorporeal spiritual beings. Even satanists believe in a higher power. These are truths, and since Christ said “I am the Truth”, these beliefes, at a very rudiemtary level, begin toward the truth of Christ. In light of this teaching, to then state that the Catholic Church is just trying to be politically correct, is to accuse the Church of lying to its members, of intentionally teaching error. And it is here that I would urge extreme caution.

I would not go that far with regards to the Lutheran Church, to claim that Missouri Synod Lutheranism intentionally teaches error to its members. Since I know little about the Lutheran Church, I instead refrain from offering my opinion about what the LC-MS Church is or isn’t trying to be or its motivation behind anything it does. Again, I’ll urge caution with regards to what you accuse the Catholic Church of. I’ll grant that your remark was made out of ignorance about what the Catholic Church teaches as well as zeal for Christ and let it go there.

-Tim-

Let me be blunt also, the LC-MS does not believe in syncretism and that the only Truth is found in the Christian Church. I respect the Catholic Church but this is where we differ. Just because other religions as the Catholic Church says may have bits of truth, that will not get them to Heaven but to Hell. Christ said that the only way to the Father was through Him.

 

[Dale_M]

“The pope did not pray together with the mufti, but turning towards the East he prayed next to the mufti and not in the same manner, Poglia explained. That of standing side by side represents how followers of different faiths can stand next to each other in prayer, which is the most pure act in any religion, and together can renew fraternity, peace and forgiveness. Those few minutes are the defeat of conflict between religions”
thebereancall.org/node/2647
“Pope Benedict has wound up a visit to Turkey amid praise from the local press for visiting Istanbul’s Blue Mosque and praying towards Mecca”
abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200612/s1802586.htm
This is what I mean there are two different stories so how do we know what really happened?

Sometimes it is difficult to separate out the facts from the interpretation that a reporter gives those facts. However, the mosque prayer issue doesn’t seem to be one of them. Pope Benedict was being given a tour by the Grand Mufti. When the Grand Mufti turned to pray Pope Benedict did so as well, I think out of politeness. Remember, this trip was partially meant to soothe over angry feelings from his Regensburg speech.

When the two men reached the mihrab, the focal point of the mosque facing Mecca, the Mufti explained that Muslims stand for 30 seconds there “to achieve serenity”. He then announced: “I am going to pray.” The pontiff turned towards Mecca and joined him, his lips clearly moving in prayer for over a minute.

Father Federico Lombardi, the Pope’s spokesman, said that the pontiff had “paused in meditation and certainly he addressed his thoughts to God”.

However, Pope Benedict’s act of prayer differed significantly from that of Pope John Paul II, who when he visited a mosque in Damascus in 2001 was left to meditate alone. The Pope continued praying yesterday after the Mufti had stopped.

timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article656210.ece

As for why Pope Benedict removed his shoes at the Blue Mosque, but not at the mosque in Jordan, it seems he was told that it wasn’t necessary due to mat which had been laid down.

The two sides overcame one diplomatic obstacle: whether he would remove his shoes. Fr Lombardi said the visiting party, including the Pope, had been prepared to remove their shoes, but that their hosts had laid down a mat in such a way that this did not prove necessary.

telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/vaticancityandholysee/5300283/Pope-Benedict-XVI-visits-Jordan-mosque-in-effort-to-heal-Vaticans-rift-with-Islam.html

 

[Dale_M]

Christ said that the only way to the Father was through Him.

The Catholic Church teaches that as well. The bits of truth contained in other religions simply pave the way for those believers to accept Christ, once they understand his saving message. Its up to us to evangelize them, but if they do not get evangelized God may still offer them, after death, the chance to accept Christ.

I’ll post a slab of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, since it expresses official teaching,

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846
How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

    Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847
This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

    Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848
"Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt3art9p3.shtml

 

[Sam_777]

Hi Aydan ,

As long as there is no restrict rule in the Catholic Church which states that Christians should pray towards Jerusalem only, then I see no issue for him praying towards Mecca, of curse without believing that there is anything holy or related to any prophet over there, because there is no proof that Abraham built or visited Mecca outside the Islamic sources.

(John 4:23-24):
“Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks, God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.”

 

[theistgal]

If a child born in an Islam country sincerely seeks to find the Truth, she will find Christ. She may or may not understand or know Him by that name, but the important thing is that He will know her, and will help her to get to where He is.

If she dies before finding out that it is Jesus Christ (and Christianity) that she seeks, do you think He will meet her at the gates of Heaven and say, “Sorry, dear, I know you were doing your best to find me, but that truck bomb exploded before my missionaries could get to you. So it’s off to Hell with you!”

 

[Contarini]

that goes against what the Bible says about you don’t know the Father unless you know the Son and salvation can only be attained by Jesus and serving him, all else is idol worship

Jews worship idols?

We’ve been over this a thousand times on this forum, but it never dies. Once more through the drill:

1. If non-Trinitarian monotheists worship a false god, then you have to say that post-Christian Jews worship a false god. Furthermore, in order to avoid the Marcionite heresy (that the God of the Old Testament is a false god) you have to say that Jews in the Old Testament believed in the Trinity. You further have to explain how somehow they stopped believing in the Trinity while claiming that they were simply going on believing exactly as they had done before the time of Jesus. This is a pretty tall order.
2. If you argue that Muslims worship a false god not because of their rejection of the Trinity but for some other reason, then you’re on somewhat more solid ground, but you have to flesh out what that reason is. While there are certainly differences between the Islamic and Jewish conceptions of God, neither Muslims nor Jews generally regard these differences as constituting a “different God,” and in fact it’s hard to establish that there are major, fundamental differences of principle between the two monotheistic religions. So I don’t find arguments along these lines convincing.
3. Finally, you have to deal with the fact that Christians have traditionally regarded all language about (and worship offered to) a noncorporeal, eternal Supreme Deity as referring to the true God, even if it was used by pagans who also worshiped lesser beings. The early Christian apologists consistently acknowledge the Supreme Deity of Greek philosophy and religion to be the same as the Christian God (I would argue that you see that in Acts 17 and Romans 1), while condemning the pagans for offering sacrifice to what they themselves acknowledged to be lesser beings.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

There is a distinction to be made between pre-Christian religions like paganism and post-Christian religions like islam.

Sure, with regard to moral culpability, but not with regard to the question of whether they refer to the true God. (Or rather, the difference is solidly favorable to Islam, so that early Christian acknowledgment of pagan worship of the true God clearly applies even more strongly to Islam.)

I think this is the confusion a lot of folks make. I hold to inclusivism with regard to salvation as well (that people may be finally saved without having explicitly acknowledged Jesus in this life). But that’s a separate issue. It is, after all, quite possible for Christians to know of and speak about and (outwardly) worship the true God while not being in a state of grace. So saying that Muslims acknowledge the true God does not in itself say that they are going to heaven.

Edwin

 

[Tyuiop411]

Isn’t traditional to pray facing East anyway? I have all my “prayer corners” on the East side of my house, so does that automatically mean I’m praying towards Mecca since Muslims in the US would also pray facing East?

 

[runningdude]

Jews worship idols?

We’ve been over this a thousand times on this forum, but it never dies. Once more through the drill:

1. If non-Trinitarian monotheists worship a false god, then you have to say that post-Christian Jews worship a false god. Furthermore, in order to avoid the Marcionite heresy (that the God of the Old Testament is a false god) you have to say that Jews in the Old Testament believed in the Trinity. You further have to explain how somehow they stopped believing in the Trinity while claiming that they were simply going on believing exactly as they had done before the time of Jesus. This is a pretty tall order.
2. If you argue that Muslims worship a false god not because of their rejection of the Trinity but for some other reason, then you’re on somewhat more solid ground, but you have to flesh out what that reason is. While there are certainly differences between the Islamic and Jewish conceptions of God, neither Muslims nor Jews generally regard these differences as constituting a “different God,” and in fact it’s hard to establish that there are major, fundamental differences of principle between the two monotheistic religions. So I don’t find arguments along these lines convincing.
3. Finally, you have to deal with the fact that Christians have traditionally regarded all language about (and worship offered to) a noncorporeal, eternal Supreme Deity as referring to the true God, even if it was used by pagans who also worshiped lesser beings. The early Christian apologists consistently acknowledge the Supreme Deity of Greek philosophy and religion to be the same as the Christian God (I would argue that you see that in Acts 17 and Romans 1), while condemning the pagans for offering sacrifice to what they themselves acknowledged to be lesser beings.

Edwin

Best summary I’ve read about this!