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Christphr
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Did society influence Vatican II more (or the other way around)?
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Did society influence Vatican II more (or the other way around)?
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jackfitz316
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I think the other way around. If you look at what was being demanded by Catholics at the time, it becomes apparent that Vatican II was the result of societal changes. Luckily the Church only made reforms regarding traditions, and not theology or morality.
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FollowChrist34
Guest
The idea was that Vatican II was going to bring the Church into the modern age. The real result was that society in the form of influences in the Church, high and low, brought the modern age into the Church. I am sympathetic to Vatican II in that I believe something along those lines did have to happen to the Catholic Church but I think it turned the Church into something very modern, a weakening of its identity which robbed Catholics of much that was inspiring and integral in their faith. Vatican II makes the RCC a pretty mellow easy run of the mill place to be. Armchair Christianity. This of course spawned the traditionalist movement, backlash. Both sides have a point - the traditionalists are right about liturgy and losing a sense of the sacredness, a loss of focus in the RCC (threw out the baby with the bathwater). The best thing the modernists did was reach out to Protestants, try and right the rigid, legalistic excesses and wrongs of the past - but of course even that went awry in the form of easy ecumenism, tossing off doctrine. Vatican II opened too many doors that all head straight out of the Church proper - now you can’t shut them. You can only watch in horror and/or bemusement, depending on where you are sitting.
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edwest211
Guest
God always leaves a faithful remnant. We can say no to certain behaviors and not participate in certain actions. That has never changed.
Vatican II was a good Council. It was the work of the Holy Spirit, not society. It sought to present the Gospel anew, not a different Gospel. However, when it ended in December 1965, certain individuals and groups would use it as an excuse, a smoke screen, to deflect from the fact that along with dissidents inside the Church and those outside of it, a coordinated attack was being launched. Radical organizations were formed. Civilian preachers began to appear in our neighborhoods. The Hippies, Anarchists and Radicals could not stand the fact that practicing Catholics existed. That most of us did not want to live like they lived. I was there. I heard: “You Catholics think sex is dirty.” No, we got married, had sex and had kids and enjoyed ourselves. “All you Catholics do is listen to the Pope. Why don’t you think for yourselves?” Allow me to translate: “You make us feel uncomfortable! We hate that! Why can’t you just have sex with whoever you want like we do? Or use illegal drugs like we do? Or live by our rules, not something your Church told you? We got freedom, man.” No, you have slavery to the flesh.
All of the changes after Vatican II were not even suggested by Vatican II. Who took out the communion/altar rails, the statues and even artwork? Who decided that they could do Mass their way? Who decided it was “time” to bring up Women Priests? To start deviating from Church teaching? Wreck the families. Tell young people the Church didn’t matter, marriage doesn’t matter (it’s just a piece of paper) and mom and dad should be ignored. Here, read these books on Eastern mysticism. Practice Hippie yoga.
All carefully planned and rolled out. The family and the Church were under assault. But, in recent years, Churches have been returning communion/altar rails, statues and artwork. The Tabernacle has returned to its place at the end of the center aisle. Why? “Because of the things that happened in the 1960s.”
Vatican II was a good Council. It was the work of the Holy Spirit, not society. It sought to present the Gospel anew, not a different Gospel. However, when it ended in December 1965, certain individuals and groups would use it as an excuse, a smoke screen, to deflect from the fact that along with dissidents inside the Church and those outside of it, a coordinated attack was being launched. Radical organizations were formed. Civilian preachers began to appear in our neighborhoods. The Hippies, Anarchists and Radicals could not stand the fact that practicing Catholics existed. That most of us did not want to live like they lived. I was there. I heard: “You Catholics think sex is dirty.” No, we got married, had sex and had kids and enjoyed ourselves. “All you Catholics do is listen to the Pope. Why don’t you think for yourselves?” Allow me to translate: “You make us feel uncomfortable! We hate that! Why can’t you just have sex with whoever you want like we do? Or use illegal drugs like we do? Or live by our rules, not something your Church told you? We got freedom, man.” No, you have slavery to the flesh.
All of the changes after Vatican II were not even suggested by Vatican II. Who took out the communion/altar rails, the statues and even artwork? Who decided that they could do Mass their way? Who decided it was “time” to bring up Women Priests? To start deviating from Church teaching? Wreck the families. Tell young people the Church didn’t matter, marriage doesn’t matter (it’s just a piece of paper) and mom and dad should be ignored. Here, read these books on Eastern mysticism. Practice Hippie yoga.
All carefully planned and rolled out. The family and the Church were under assault. But, in recent years, Churches have been returning communion/altar rails, statues and artwork. The Tabernacle has returned to its place at the end of the center aisle. Why? “Because of the things that happened in the 1960s.”
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IWantGod
Guest
Vatican 2 way absolutely necessary and has made the church stronger. .
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