Did St. Augustine believe in transubstantiation? Protestants say no

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Is there any writing that shows St. Augustine believing in transubstantiation?
-what about the fact that he was a bishop thus would celebrate the Mass

youtube.com/watch?v=q6SUtFCZQpA
an argument against transubstantiation
 
Hi J1Priest,

Here is the deal; St. Augustine seems to exhibit 4 different modalities in terms of the Eucharist. So if someone examines these in selective isolation then you might be able to say that he did not believe in the real presence. However as a whole there is no denying that he believed in the real presence and reputable Protestants historians such as J.N. Kelly corroborate this. For more details on this I will put in a shameless plug:o for a book (Bible vs. the Catechism) that an apologetics group that I help out with put out. In my humble opinion it should clarify the issue and explain why some Protestants misunderstand St. Augustine on this issue in a chapter covering the real presence.

God Bless,

search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&EAN=9781411606623&itm=1
 
Verbum said:
Hi J1,

St Augustine centered on the mass more as a sacrifice than as the real presence of Christ on the altar. It is important to study ALL of St. Augustine’s works to conclude that he believed in the real presence. There is an excellent article on the subject at

deoomnisgloria.com/archives/2006/02/st_augustine_and_the_real_pres.html

Verbum
Click to expand...
"Augustine Believed the Mass to be a Sacrifice

“In the sacrament he is immolated for the people not only on every Easter Solemnity but on every day; and a man would not be lying if, when asked, he were to reply that Christ is being immolated. For if sacraments had not a likeness to those things of which they are sacraments, they would not be sacraments at all; and they generally take the names of those same things by reason of this likeness” (Letters 98:9 [A.D. 412]). “For when he says in another book, which is called Ecclesiastes, ‘There is no good for a man except that he should eat and drink’ [Eccl. 2:24], what can he be more credibly understood to say [prophetically] than what belongs to the participation of this table which the Mediator of the New Testament himself, the priest after the order of Melchizedek, furnishes with his own body and blood? For that sacrifice has succeeded all the sacrifices of the Old Testament, which were slain as a shadow of what was to come. . . . Because, instead of all these sacrifices and oblations, his body is offered and is served up to the partakers of it” (The City of God 17:20 [A.D. 419]). "willcoxson.net/faith/augprot.htm#sacrifice

Take a look at the above website, it is filled with quotes from St. Augustine. I know this doesn’t have anything to do with the topic but Augustine also believe in purgatory, with which is something ALL Protestants disagree…

Augustine Believed in Purgatory and Praying for the Departed
“That there should be some fire even after this life is not incredible, and it can be inquired into and either be discovered or left hidden whether some of the faithful may be saved, some more slowly and some more quickly in the greater or lesser degree in which they loved the good things that perish, through a certain purgatorial fire” (*Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Charity *18:69 [A.D. 421]). “We read in the books of the Maccabees [2 Macc. 12:43] that sacrifice was offered for the dead. But even if it were found nowhere in the Old Testament writings, the authority of the Catholic Church which is clear on this point is of no small weight, where in the prayers of the priest poured forth to the Lord God at his altar the commendation of the dead has its place” (The Care to be Had for the Dead 1:3 [A.D. 421])."

Here is the home page which has a plethora of issues with which St. Augustine believed…
willcoxson.net/faith/augprot.htm
​
 
J1Priest said:
Is there any writing that shows St. Augustine believing in transubstantiation?
-what about the fact that he was a bishop thus would celebrate the Mass

youtube.com/watch?v=q6SUtFCZQpA
an argument against transubstantiation
Click to expand...
"Augustine Believed the Mass to be a Sacrifice
“In the sacrament he is immolated for the people not only on every Easter Solemnity but on every day; and a man would not be lying if, when asked, he were to reply that Christ is being immolated. For if sacraments had not a likeness to those things of which they are sacraments, they would not be sacraments at all; and they generally take the names of those same things by reason of this likeness” (Letters 98:9 [A.D. 412]).

“For when he says in another book, which is called Ecclesiastes, ‘There is no good for a man except that he should eat and drink’ [Eccl. 2:24], what can he be more credibly understood to say [prophetically] than what belongs to the participation of this table which the Mediator of the New Testament himself, the priest after the order of Melchizedek, furnishes with his own body and blood? For that sacrifice has succeeded all the sacrifices of the Old Testament, which were slain as a shadow of what was to come. . . . Because, instead of all these sacrifices and oblations, his body is offered and is served up to the partakers of it” (The City of God 17:20 [A.D. 419]). "willcoxson.net/faith/augprot.htm#sacrifice

Take a look at the above website, it is filled with quotes from St. Augustine. I know this doesn’t have anything to do with the topic but Augustine also believe in purgatory, with which is something ALL Protestants disagree…

Augustine Believed in Purgatory and Praying for the Departed
“That there should be some fire even after this life is not incredible, and it can be inquired into and either be discovered or left hidden whether some of the faithful may be saved, some more slowly and some more quickly in the greater or lesser degree in which they loved the good things that perish, through a certain purgatorial fire” (*Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Charity *18:69 [A.D. 421]). “We read in the books of the Maccabees [2 Macc. 12:43] that sacrifice was offered for the dead. But even if it were found nowhere in the Old Testament writings, the authority of the Catholic Church which is clear on this point is of no small weight, where in the prayers of the priest poured forth to the Lord God at his altar the commendation of the dead has its place” (The Care to be Had for the Dead 1:3 [A.D. 421])."

Here is the home page which has a plethora of issues with which St. Augustine believed… http://www.willcoxson.net/faith/augprot.htm

​
 
J1Priest said:
Is there any writing that shows St. Augustine believing in transubstantiation?
-what about the fact that he was a bishop thus would celebrate the Mass

youtube.com/watch?v=q6SUtFCZQpA
an argument against transubstantiation
Click to expand...

It’s impossible to believe a dogma that is not formulated even as a doctrine (let alone a dogma) until centuries after one’s death. Transubstantiation was not formulated until the 12th century - so for him, it would have been no more than latent in what he did believe. But he would never have heard of transubstantiation as such, any more than he would have heard of Australia or Saturn V.​

 
Gottle_of_Geer said:

It’s impossible to believe a dogma that is not formulated even as a doctrine (let alone a dogma) until centuries after one’s death. Transubstantiation was not formulated until the 12th century - so for him, it would have been no more than latent in what he did believe. But he would never have heard of transubstantiation as such, any more than he would have heard of Australia or Saturn V.​

Click to expand...
I wouldn’t say that. The Apostles and their successors taught the Trinity and it was accepted as dogma long before the word Trinity was used in 181 by Tertullian (I believe it was him).

St. Augustine recognized that although the Host looked like bread and the Cup looked filled with wine, they were actually fully Christ’s Body and Blood. This is Transubstantiation. The dogma was defined in the 13th Century, not formulated. Thus, it was believed prior to its definition. Likewise with Mary’s Perpetual Virginity, her Immaculate Conception, and her title as Mother of God.
 
mrteachersir said:
St. Augustine recognized that although the Host looked like bread and the Cup looked filled with wine, they were actually fully Christ’s Body and Blood.
Click to expand...
I do believe that Jesus is very emphatic when he first talks to the rabbi Nicodemus, who cannot follow his words…and then the woman at the well of Summaria who cannot follow his words, here in the sixth chapter of John, again not even his own disciples can eat and drink his words because they are still carnal…and unable to reason a mature adults in Christ. This whole thing of St Augustine’s reasoning brings to mind the words of Isaiah the prophet, ‘seeing the see not, and hearing they hear not.’ I have read the passage many times and not once did I feel the need to eat or drink Jesus physically. It is not a symbol, it is a complete blindness to His words…He is speaking of His Spirit, both to Nicodemus and to the woman at the well, and to the disciples and to you and I. If we have not the Spirit we are none of His and certainly the reason why we are stumbling over the cornerstone.

🤷
 
From the foregoing there is no doubt that Augustine believed that the bread and wine became and were the body and blood of Jesus. The catch, however, is that the application of the term transubtantiation for this change was not coined till about 600 years later, so Augustine would not have used and was not familiar with the term. He was very familiar with the phenomenon.
 
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