J
jacobmr
Guest
I joined this site because I struggled to find more info on a debate I had with another Christian and got stuck here. He insisted Baptism of Desire contradicted Church infallible teaching so I referred to the Council of Trent Session 6 Chp. 4 which reads:
"A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace.
By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."
He responded with a note that “or” means “and” in this situation, meaning this passage was meant to mean that the desire for Baptism was just as necessary as Water (which I don’t dispute on its own, just when it’s applied here) and “as it is written” means it must be explicit in reference to John 3:5: literal in meaning Water was always necessary as opposed to Baptism of Desire or Blood where Water is not necessarily used.
I answered with a source from St Alphonsus at the time that pointed to Trent as being explicit in that it meant Baptism of Desire as a doctrine. I did this for a primary source is usually offered to help clarify historical documentation to understand how it was understood at the time. His response was that the meaning of the magisterium does not matter, only the explicit declaration and the Holy Spirit withheld a more clear definition to keep them from teaching heresy. I found this ironic because Feeneyism suggests to me double-predestination because it logically concludes God creates some men for damnation. So it’s important to reconcile if indeed the Church taught heresy or not.
"A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace.
By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."
He responded with a note that “or” means “and” in this situation, meaning this passage was meant to mean that the desire for Baptism was just as necessary as Water (which I don’t dispute on its own, just when it’s applied here) and “as it is written” means it must be explicit in reference to John 3:5: literal in meaning Water was always necessary as opposed to Baptism of Desire or Blood where Water is not necessarily used.
I answered with a source from St Alphonsus at the time that pointed to Trent as being explicit in that it meant Baptism of Desire as a doctrine. I did this for a primary source is usually offered to help clarify historical documentation to understand how it was understood at the time. His response was that the meaning of the magisterium does not matter, only the explicit declaration and the Holy Spirit withheld a more clear definition to keep them from teaching heresy. I found this ironic because Feeneyism suggests to me double-predestination because it logically concludes God creates some men for damnation. So it’s important to reconcile if indeed the Church taught heresy or not.