Difference between God and His Creation?

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Thomas_Jennings

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I’ve come to faith via a scientific world view…
Thought/feelings are not matter= this is what we mean by a ‘soul’. Like wise many types of energy are not technically ‘matter’.
Indeed, all reality (including matter) is energy (particles being ‘condensed’ energy).
As concerns none material energies, they have no parts (being none physical) and so are as one. So thought/values are combined with all other energies and creative powers. This sounds a great deal like God!

But apparently it’s not God…He isn’t our thoughts/values nor is He energy…He made those things.

This seems confusing to me. On the one hand we experience something very like a god in energy here and now…all be it, only to some degree of its true power. Why not conclude that this IS a little bit of God or, rather, an example of God whilst much of Him remains unseen and unknown? Why would we logically need another none physical power and goodness than the none physical power/goodness we feel and see the effects of (all the values we have and all the ability energy has to bring everything so perfectly together)?!

It’s just annoying to have reached a perfectly reasonable (to myself at least!) conclusion as to what we mean by God, only to find it’s what ‘I’ believe God is…All we call goodness/thought combined with all the energy that has ever/will ever be…infinite and as one.

When all we feel of goodness exists here in Creation as energy and all Creation is from energy, what is the logical reason for saying ‘no, He’s not those things, He’s elsewhere’? I don’t even think my idea is ‘pantheist’…I’m not saying the goodness we have realised here and the energy we are aware of IS the sum of God’s parts…I’m saying we see a little of the larger God through the goodness we do have and that the invisible energy’s (that has no form or weight) ‘track’ through matter shows His ability to manipulate the physical World.

Energy has no form and cannot be destroyed- Goodness and values, like photons and heat, has no form. Why not just say that all these part less things are one and much besides that we don’t know of (for instance, quite how good goodness is) and call Him God?
And, if one argues that I am only partially correct (that Goodness/Betterness is Him but not other energy) how do we know/why do we think Goodness can enact with the World or is the same thing as the none physical Creator? (Any reason outside of the Bible?). Logically, if one leaved the Bible out of the answer, isn’t it the case that Perfection (all goodness) exists but it need not enact with us to be perfectly what it is?

The ability to create does not equal the same thing as being all goodness…and being all goodness does not give you the ability to enact with matter or being omnipotent. I should add that I believe in a none material Creator AND in Goodness existing fully as Goodness without it lacking anything of itself…I just have difficulty saying ‘they’re the same thing’…and this thing can do whatever it wants’.
Unless, of course, we just say the whole lot of anything anywhere is either due to energy or Energy, in which case Energy would have all none physical attributes (well…maybe…hang on, not sure about that omnipotence one but I suppose if all reality is alive and thinking…).

Anyways, I’ll stop before my brain explodes from over complication.
 
I read this yesterday :

Christ has something in common with all creatures. With the stone he shares existence, with the plants he shares life, with the animals he shares sensation, and with the angels he shares intelligence. Thus all things are transformed in Christ since in the fullness of his nature he embraces some part of every creature. --Bonaventure
 
I am not a well learned theologian/philosopher, but I will mention a few things.

You say that it is not pantheism, but nevertheless it clashes severely with orthodox Christianity. The fact that all of creation was created means that it had a beginning, and as such cannot be God. To say anything of creation is to actually be even the tiniest bit of being of God is unorthodox. Although more from the Palamist point of view (which is not really employed by Latin theology, but I think can be accepted as valid), we say God is both His nature and His energies. This is from the hesychast controversy which is an interesting read. The very fact that we are created means we cannot know God in His nature as He is infinite, and we are finite. As created beings we cannot know the Uncreated Being in His nature. However, we equally say we still interact with God, His grace, which is definitely of God. So Gregory Palamas made the distinction that there is God’s nature and God’s energies, both equally of God. So when you describe goodness for example, or anything that is God’s grace, we could I assume attribute this to God’s energies according to the Palamist distinction. However to say that creation itself (since it seems like you refer to energy itself also of the physical world, which is part of creation) to be actually a part of God, then we are entering into heterodoxy.

Just my small (name removed by moderator)ut. And hopefully I didn’t botch the explanation for the Palamist distinction.
 
The difference is the difference between two distinct natures.
 
TimothyH said:
Thomas, much of what you wrote has no basis in theology. You are way off base and as you yourself have stated, have way over complicated things.

I stronly urge reading “Theology for Beginners” by one of your own countrymen, Frank J. Sheed.

i5.walmartimages.com/dfw/dce07b8c-a2a7/k2-_3ed0b698-422b-4155-a27f-968d1b42c5ab.v1.jpg

-Tim-
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Sheed says that thought is spirit because it is none material. Agreed. But aren’t photons, for instance, and much quantum phenomena also lacking in form and weight? We can merely observe the tracks in material of where they’ve been…not the things themselves. And isn’t quantum energy infinite…not needing a start and incapable of ending?
 
Thomas_Jennings said:
I’ve come to faith via a scientific world view…
Thought/feelings are not matter= this is what we mean by a ‘soul’. Like wise many types of energy are not technically ‘matter’.
Indeed, all reality (including matter) is energy (particles being ‘condensed’ energy).
As concerns none material energies, they have no parts (being none physical) and so are as one. So thought/values are combined with all other energies and creative powers. This sounds a great deal like God!..[s(name removed by moderator)}…
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First you need to understand who God is. If you have read the Bible, you should have gotten a good idea there. According to the Bible, God is obviously an intelligent Being, This is clear because he tells us he created all that exists ( which would include all the " energies " you speak of ). And he constantly reminds the Israelites that he created them and all creatures, the mountains, the streams, the animals, etc, that all men are subject to his will, that he rewards and punishes eternally, that Kings and governments hold power by his permissive will, even by his commanding will in some cases, that all governments are subject to his will, that all things will be done according to his will. So he is a supremely intellegent and all powerful Being, than whom none is greater. Further he tells them there is no God but him, he is One God, the Only God and he commands their worship and love - he is a Jealous God, he will have allow none but himself.

Then in the New Testament we find that he sent his eternally begotten Son into the world, in the flesh, to save the people from their sins. His Son lived, suffered, died, rose from the Dead and Ascended into heaven, all before crowds of witnesses, His Son tells us he and the Father are one. While alive, he drove out demons, walked on water, changed water into wine, clamed storms, read souls, raised the dead, etc, all showing his Almighty and immediate power over nature, men, and demons, all creation. He sent Angels to communicate with men in the Old Testament and the New, so he cammands them too.

So, whatever he is, he is not the energy about which science is concerned. Nor is he any other part of the created universe.

Some of his qualities we can glean directly from Scriptures. He is obviously good, merciful, just, intelligent, all powerful, present everywhere, he is One God in Three Persons. He obviously exists outside the universe because he created it, in time, out of no prior existing matter or energy of any sort. He is obviously eternal, since he created everything else and nothing created him.

Since he is eternal, he is utterly simple: that is, he is composed of no parts, of no substance -not even energy- he is immaterial. All the universe is subject to decay and death because it is composed of parts - matter and energy; but not God, because he is not composed of matter or energy. In other words He is a Pure Intellect, a Pure Soul, a Purely Spiritual Being without beginning or end.

Post # 3 gave a very good suggestion, get and read Theology for Beginners. You can also read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, linked below.

Linus2nd.
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Thomas_Jennings said:
Sheed says that thought is spirit because it is none material. Agreed. But aren’t photons, for instance, and much quantum phenomena also lacking in form and weight? We can merely observe the tracks in material of where they’ve been…not the things themselves. And isn’t quantum energy infinite…not needing a start and incapable of ending?
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If they leave " tracks " or can be weighed, measured, or detected, they are material substances of some kind. I don’t know whether quantum energy is infinite or not. In what sense do you think it is infinite? It certainly had a beginning since it is a part of the universe. In fact some people think all material substances are nothing but bundles of energy. But it is still a part of the universe, so it had a beginning.

Linus2nd
 
Linusthe2nd said:
If they leave " tracks " or can be weighed, measured, or detected, they are material substances of some kind. I don’t know whether quantum energy is infinite or not. In what sense do you think it is infinite? It certainly had a beginning since it is a part of the universe. In fact some people think all material substances are nothing but bundles of energy. But it is still a part of the universe, so it had a beginning.

Linus2nd
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They can’t be weighed (they have no weight). We detect them via the ‘prints in matter’- if you will- a bit like footprints in snow…which tell us they’re there. I’m saying they’re infinite because, having no true form, they cannot be destroyed.
 
Thomas_Jennings said:
They can’t be weighed (they have no weight). We detect them via the ‘prints in matter’- if you will- a bit like footprints in snow…which tell us they’re there. I’m saying they’re infinite because, having no true form, they cannot be destroyed.
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That was one choice out of four. I gave four choices to cover all basis. If a substances falls under any of these possibilities it is matter of some kind, it is not immaterial or spiritual.

Linus2nd
 
Linusthe2nd said:
That was one choice out of four. I gave four choices to cover all basis. If a substances falls under any of these possibilities it is matter of some kind, it is not immaterial or spiritual.

Linus2nd
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Yes, you’re quite right.
I think it stands to reason that something none matter kick started Creation and goodness is also none matter and, being goodness, the entirety of what ‘goodness’ entails with nothing of itself lacked.
Does it follow to say these two none material things are definitely the same thing?
 
Thomas_Jennings said:
Sheed says that thought is spirit because it is none material. Agreed. But aren’t photons, for instance, and much quantum phenomena also lacking in form and weight? We can merely observe the tracks in material of where they’ve been…not the things themselves. And isn’t quantum energy infinite…not needing a start and incapable of ending?
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I know little to nothing about physics. What I do know is that creation is not the creator.

Everything you mention is created. None of what you mention is the creator.

I worship the creator, not the creation.
 
TimothyH said:
I know little to nothing about physics. What I do know is that creation is not the creator.

Everything you mention is created. None of what you mention is the creator.

I worship the creator, not the creation.
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Agreed. Our adoration, our truest and fullest worship, belongs to God alone. God is (1) the Creator who (2) is uncreated because (3) His essence is to exist. That essence is expressed directly and fully in His own existence—He is spirit (John 4:24)—and the existence of his creations, both His angelic and human and material creations.
To quote from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:The living God
205 God calls Moses from the midst of a bush that burns without being consumed: "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob."9 God is the God of the fathers, the One who had called and guided the patriarchs in their wanderings. He is the faithful and compassionate God who remembers them and his promises; he comes to free their descendants from slavery. He is the God who, from beyond space and time, can do this and wills to do it, the God who will put his almighty power to work for this plan.
“I Am who I Am”
Code: 
Moses said to God, "If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you', and they ask me, 'What is his name?' what shall I say to them?" God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you'. . . this is my name for ever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations."(10)[INDENT](9) Ex 3:6.
(10) Ex 3:13-15.
​
206 In revealing his mysterious name, YHWH (“I AM HE WHO IS”, “I AM WHO AM” or “I AM WHO I AM”), God says who he is and by what name he is to be called. This divine name is mysterious just as God is mystery. It is at once a name revealed and something like the refusal of a name, and hence it better expresses God as what he is - infinitely above everything that we can understand or say: he is the “hidden God”, his name is ineffable, and he is the God who makes himself close to men.(11)
[/INDENT]
INDENT Cf. Isa 45:15; Jdg 13:18.
​
[/INDENT]
 
Thomas_Jennings said:
They can’t be weighed (they have no weight). We detect them via the ‘prints in matter’- if you will- a bit like footprints in snow…which tell us they’re there. I’m saying they’re infinite because, having no true form, they cannot be destroyed.
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What do you mean by “destroyed.” Are you speaking of the nature/essence of said object as no longer existing (such as the essence of a candle is destroyed when a stick of wax melts into a puddle, which is not a candle), or are you talking about the substance/being itself destroyed/no longer existing (such as an isolated system of 5 Joules resulting in 2 Joules after the destruction/disappearance of 3 Joules). And I’m a physics major, and I’m confused on what you mean by infinite quantum energy. Are you referring to zero-point energy?
 
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