Difference between trad., SSPX etc

[fin]

this forum is confusing.
what is exactly Tradtiional Catholicism?
what is exactly SSPX?
what is Sedevacantism?

Are all these: the same, similar , or different?

 

[jwoodsome]

this forum is confusing.
what is exactly Tradtiional Catholicism?
what is exactly SSPX?
what is Sedevacantism?

Are all these: the same, similar , or different?

I attend SSPX chapels and was married in one, so I think I can give a pretty fair explanation.

1. Traditional Catholocism generally refers to Catholics that prefer/attend the Tridentine rite mass of before Vatican II. This is kind of the all-encompassing term.
2. The SSPX is the Society of St. Pius the Tenth, which was formed legally by the late Archbishop Lefebvre (RIP) in the 1970s due to his concern with the formation of priests after Vatican II and the changes of the mass, eccumenecism, etc. To make a long story short in 1988 Archbishop Lefebvre ordained 4 bishops for the society without Vatican approval because he knew he would be dying soon (3 years later in fact) and JP2 was playing yo-yo with him and may never have let him consecrate a bishop. Anyhow, he did what he did out of necessity for the salvation of souls and the continuation of the priesthood, so us followers believe he was not excommunicated, but JPII and several others do. Benedict XVI and several other high-ups have made statements that they do not think Lefebvre and his followers are excommunicated, however.

Regardless, the SSPX acknowledges the current pope as pope and prays for him at their masses (all Tridentine), but refuses to follow them along a path of sin, which humans are capable of commiting unless they are making Ex Cathedra statements about doctrine. Papal infallability has been a tough topic since it was declared years ago.

1. The sedevaticanists are a group of Traditional Catholics that believe there has not been a true pope since approximately Pope Pius XII or some a little before him. They say all of the popes since, even if their episcopal consecrations have been valid after the changes of Vatican II, have been heretics and therefor can not hold the seat of Peter. Some of these groups are the Society of St. Pius V, CMRI, and others. For the most part they are groups that split off of the SSPX because they felt they were submitting to the pope *too *much.

So as you can see, there is a wide spectrum of beliefs when it comes to Traditional Catholicism, so it is advisable to use discretion when searching for a traditional mass venue. If you visit www.traditio.com there is a Traditional Catholic Directory that lists the different types of masses, etc. Again, use discretion with this as well.

God bless!

 

[jwoodsome]

p.s. As far as humans being capable of comitting sin regardless of their position…

My divorced mother asked me to walk her down the isle as she is remarried this summer. I explained to her that I couldn’t because she is still married to my father, but she disagrees.

I believe I am still honoring my mother, but no office could make her infalliable. Parents neglect and abuse their children, and Popes are cabable of allowing horrible destruction to come to the Catholic mass. We do not have to help them continue their sins, however.

 

[Sola_Roma]

this forum is confusing.
what is exactly Tradtiional Catholicism?
what is exactly SSPX?
what is Sedevacantism?

Are all these: the same, similar , or different?

Trad Catholics are Roman Catholics who prefer to worship and live their faith the way it was done before the Second Vatican Council.

The SSPX are a group of trad Catholics.

Sedevacantism is the belief there every Pope since Pius XII is an anti-pope and a false pope.

 

[Rykell]

Hello Fin,

You have been given some very bad advice, my man. I take exception to the comments made by our new member who may not have read the rules of the road yet.

jwoodsome:

JP2 was playing yo-yo with him (this lack of respect for the Vicar of Christ is dishonorable ) and may never have let him consecrate a bishop. Anyhow, he did what he did out of necessity for the salvation of souls and the continuation of the priesthood (ennobling Lefebvre’s schismatic acts as though justified) so us followers believe he was not excommunicated (A false credo to spread to others who are not informed), but JPII and several others do. Benedict XVI and several other high-ups have made statements that they do not think Lefebvre and his followers are excommunicated, however. (We need a source document for this, and none was given. I doubt it exists other than on “Traditio”.)

Regardless, the SSPX acknowledges the current pope as pope and prays for him at their masses (all Tridentine), but refuses to follow them along a path of sin, (Clearly a slanderous statement!)

Traditional Catholics are those who align themselves with the latin mass (TLM= traditional latin mass) prior to the Novus Ordo of Pope Paul VI, our normative liturgy (N.O.). The TLM is permitted to be said only by indult given by the Pope, but is said to be given more latitude for celebration without needing special permission of the diocesan bishop. This statement (Motu Proprio) has not been issued yet, but is eagerly anticipated by those who wish to worship in this manner. Currently, very few parishes have these celebrations and people need to travel great distances to find one.

 

[Triumpha]

The Traditional Movement subsists in the SSPX!



Triumpha,

 

[CatholicNick]

The Traditional Movement subsists in the SSPX!



Triumpha,

 

[Marilena]

this forum is confusing.
what is exactly Tradtiional Catholicism?
what is exactly SSPX?
what is Sedevacantism?

Are all these: the same, similar , or different?

if your new to this forum, then sure it can be confusing. tradtional Catholicism i understand is the Church before Vatican 2. the SSPX you can view at www.sspx.org

sede vacantists are ones who believe the throne of peter is vacant. that there is no legitimate pope after pius xii on the throne of peter.

the SSPX is not a sede vacantist society. the SSPX are traditionalists. so the difference between them and sede vacantists is that the SSPX does believe that every pope is valid and is the successor of peter.

 

[Thursday1]

I attend SSPX chapels and was married in one, so I think I can give a pretty fair explanation.

Are you aware that the SSPX can not validly confect the sacrament of marriage because they do not have jurisdiction from the local Ordinary?

Yours in Christ,
Thursday

 

[Marilena]

Are you aware that the SSPX can not validly confect the sacrament of marriage because they do not have jurisdiction from the local Ordinary?

Yours in Christ,
Thursday

yes, iam now aware of that.likely the other poster is as well.

 

[Marilena]

Hello Fin,

You have been given some very bad advice, my man. I take exception to the comments made by our new member who may not have read the rules of the road yet.

Traditional Catholics are those who align themselves with the latin mass (TLM= traditional latin mass) prior to the Novus Ordo of Pope Paul VI, our normative liturgy (N.O.). The TLM is permitted to be said only by indult given by the Pope, but is said to be given more latitude for celebration without needing special permission of the diocesan bishop. This statement (Motu Proprio) has not been issued yet, but is eagerly anticipated by those who wish to worship in this manner. Currently, very few parishes have these celebrations and people need to travel great distances to find one.

are you quoting the posters comment from a different thread friend? because if you are, that is not allowed on CAF.

 

[jwoodsome]

It’s too bad that the ministers of the sacrament of marriage are the couple, not the priest. Catholics will accept marriages performed by any protestant minister as valid, but perhaps not licit, meaning allowed.

This is a small consolation to those of us that refuse to beg for the true traditions of the church.

 

[Sola_Roma]

It’s too bad that the ministers of the sacrament of marriage are the couple, not the priest. Catholics will accept marriages performed by any protestant minister as valid, but perhaps not licit, meaning allowed.

This is a small consolation to those of us that refuse to beg for the true traditions of the church.

That is so very true.

Catholics have to beg for their traditions like dogs at a table.

 

[Thursday1]

It’s too bad that the ministers of the sacrament of marriage are the couple, not the priest. Catholics will accept marriages performed by any protestant minister as valid, but perhaps not licit, meaning allowed.

This is a small consolation to those of us that refuse to beg for the true traditions of the church.

CIC:

Can. 1108 §1. Only those marriages are valid which are contracted before the local ordinary, pastor, or a priest or deacon delegated by either of them, who assist, and before two witnesses according to the rules expressed in the following canons and without prejudice to the exceptions mentioned in cann. 144, 1112, §1, 1116, and 1127, §§1-2.

It is all a matter of jurisdiction. The Protestants are not bound by the CIC, Latin Rite Catholics are. An SSPX Priest cannot validly witness a Catholic marriage, as he does not posses the jurisdiction given by the local ordinary.
As for your second paragraph, given a choice between participating in an invalid and illicit sacrament, or humbling myself and participating in a valid and licit sacrament, I would choose the latter. (note: pride is my biggest problem, so I can understand how difficult it can be.)

Yours in Christ,
Thursday

 

[jwoodsome]

It’s not a matter of pride. It’s a matter of doing what I know is right and what God would want. I repeat, for the purpose of the question of our marriage only, my wife and I are the ministers of our marriage, not the priest. It doesn’t matter what opinions of jurisdiction are present, we are still validly married. It doesn’t even matter that a law that has been on the books for centuries says we don’t have to ask to have traditional sacraments.

 

[Unfinished]

That is so very true.

Catholics have to beg for their traditions like dogs at a table.

I like the way you put that.

 

[Petergee]

this forum is confusing.
what is exactly Tradtiional Catholicism?
what is exactly SSPX?
what is Sedevacantism?

Are all these: the same, similar , or different?

If someone describes himself as a “Traditional Catholic” or invites you to a “Traditional Catholic Mass”, make sure you get him to say whether he is referring to:

A. The 1962 Mass of the Roman Rite which the Catholic Church allows to be celebrated in every diocese, often by priests of the Priestly Fraternity of St Peter (FSSP). These are perfectly valid and licit Masses and those celebrating them are Catholics in good standing in communion with the pope and the Catholic bishops. You may attend these Masses as often as you wish and they fulfil your Sunday Mass obligation.

or B. Masses which use the rites as they stood at various dates, or combinations of these. These Masses are valid (i.e. Christ’s Body and Blood becomes really and truly present), but they are illicit (celebrated WITHOUT permission from the Pope and bishops by priests who are NOT in Communion with the Catholic Church). Groups who do this include the Society of St Pius X (SSPX), Society of St Pius V (SSPV), and “Sedevacantist” groups. Though some of these groups may verbally proclaim their loyalty to the Pope, their actions speak otherwise. The Catholic Church regards them as schismatic groups, i.e. in the same way she regards, e.g. the Greek Orthodox Church. Catholics must NOT attend Masses celebrated by any of these groups. (Exceptions may be allowed to attend baptisms, marriages or funerals of friends/family.)

 

[fantrl]

It’s not a matter of pride. It’s a matter of doing what I know is right and what God would want.

God wants disobedience to the leadership he put on Earth?

 

[Triumpha]

God wants disobedience to the leadership he put on Earth?

St Robert Bellarmine said:

“Just as it is lawful to resist the pope that attacks the body, it is also lawful to resist the one who attacks the souls or who disturbs civil order, or, above all, who attempts to destroy the Church. I say that it is lawful to resist him by not doing what he orders and preventing his will from being executed.”

Triumpha.

 

[Thursday1]

It’s not a matter of pride. It’s a matter of doing what I know is right and what God would want. I repeat, for the purpose of the question of our marriage only, my wife and I are the ministers of our marriage, not the priest. It doesn’t matter what opinions of jurisdiction are present, we are still validly married. It doesn’t even matter that a law that has been on the books for centuries says we don’t have to ask to have traditional sacraments.

I’m going to suggest that we continue this in the thread for SSPX marriage.

Yours in Christ,
Thursday