Different treatment from Holy Mother Church

[HenryV]

How come you can be called excommunicated and schismatic when you believe all that the Church believes, only that you prefer the older rite of Mass and may have some doubts about some minor evolutions of the Catholic faith regarding ecumenism and freedom of religion.

And when you deny the divinity of Christ you just recieve a warning?

 

[juno24]

How come you can be called excommunicated and schismatic when you believe all that the Church believes, only that you prefer the older rite of Mass and may have some doubts about some minor evolutions of the Catholic faith regarding ecumenism and freedom of religion.

And when you deny the divinity of Christ you just recieve a warning?

Can you clarify your accusations? Who has been excommunicated for nothing more than saying they prefer the old Mass? And who has received nothing but a warning for denying the divinity of Christ? And how do you know these things happened?

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

How come you can be called excommunicated and schismatic when you believe all that the Church believes, only that you prefer the older rite of Mass and may have some doubts about some minor evolutions of the Catholic faith regarding ecumenism and freedom of religion.

And when you deny the divinity of Christ you just recieve a warning?

It’s partly political. If the non-Trinitarian is just some chap with a bee in his bonnet and no sort of following, it might be best not to upset him too much. On the other hand if it looks like there is going to be a serious split then the Pope has to head it off. Serious splits usually occur when the party splitting off has a point.

 

[bear06]

This is pretty much the same discussion as here forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=158674

As for another :twocents: I always treat my children who should know better harsher than the more uneducated, infantile ones. That said, I don’t really think the Vatican is doing what you think they are doing. If you look at the Vatican’s notification of dissenters, there is 1 on the far right and the rest are liberals. The one on the far right didn’t just err in his writing but ordained bishops without papal consent.

 

[HenryV]

I was thinking of the SSPXer’s and Sobrino.

 

[LilyM]

I was thinking of the SSPXer’s and Sobrino.

My understanding is that not all SSPXers have been excommunicated for starters - not even all SSPX clerics.

Lefebvre certainly was, and if you read Ecclesia Dei you can read why. It wasn’t in the slightest related to his disagreements on doctrine or his preference for the TLM.

Rather it was because he deliberately defied Rome and chose to ordain new Bishops when he had been directly ordered not to. Now Bishops don’t have unrestricted power to ordain new Bishops, but can only do so when Rome has given approval. So what he did was wrong.

And if that sort of direct disobedience isn’t grounds for excommunication then I’d say nothing is.

 

[rpp]

No lay people or priests in the SSPX have been excommunicated simply for being involved in SSPX. The late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre along with a retired bishop Bishop Emeritus Antônio de Castro Mayer of Campos, Brazil, as co-consecrator, consecrated four SSPX priests as bishops: Bernard Tissier de Mallerais, Richard Williamson, Alfonso de Galarreta and Bernard Fellay were excommunicated. Those six are the only ones in SSPX who were excommunicated.

This invalid elevation action was done only after in notifying the Pope and permission to do so was explicitly denied (for reasons I do not know and will not speculate on.)

This public, specific and direct defiance of Papal authority is significantly different than simply publishing a book with a number of troubling and heretical assertions.

 

[Walking_Home]

I was thinking of the SSPXer’s and Sobrino.

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Denying a core doctrine—makes a person a heretic—but that is ok with the Church----as long as they do not consecrate bishops.

 

[LilyM]

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Denying a core doctrine—makes a person a heretic—but that is ok with the Church----as long as they do not consecrate bishops.

As has been said, Sobrino has received a warning. So what he believes is NOT ok with the Church, and they’ve told him so.

And abuse of the sacrament of Holy Orders - or any sacrament for that matter - is clearly infinitely worse than the mere publication of privately-held heretical views, surely you must acknowledge that!

One presumes that if he continues to publicise his opinion against the Divinity of Christ he will be excommunicated. Perhaps immediately, perhaps after stronger warnings. That doesn’t mean he can’t continue to speak, teach or publish of course. And the Church can’t deny his right to do so, even if they do excommunicate him.

 

[Walking_Home]

As has been said, Sobrino has received a warning. So what he has taught is NOT ok with the Church, and they’ve told him so.

One presumes that if he continues to teach against the Divinity of Christ he will be excommunicated. That doesn’t mean he can’t continue to teach or publish of course.

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Arch. Lefebvre apparently “offended” the Pope —while Sobrino offended God by denying the Second Person—and he gets a warning. That seems fair.

 

[AJV]

How come you can be called excommunicated and schismatic when you believe all that the Church believes, only that you prefer the older rite of Mass and may have some doubts about some minor evolutions of the Catholic faith regarding ecumenism and freedom of religion.

And when you deny the divinity of Christ you just recieve a warning?

Life, my friend, is unfair.

 

[Icarus210]

Life maybe unfair, because it is run by Man… But God is ALWAYS 100% FAIR and if the Pope can admit pentecostals, Islamic clerics, kiss the Quran, hug the Dali Lama, and yet refuse to see the ex Archbishop of the whole of Africa, something really is wrong:shrug:

 

[Walking_Home]

Life, my friend, is unfair.

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And here I thought----The Church was to set the example.

 

[HenryV]

Actually I’m thinking of joining or at least supporting the SSPX out of sympathy not conviction.
I’m fed up with Koran kissing and Lama-hugging.
Gaylifestyle-friendly, femofascist run institution masquerading as the true Church.

 

[AJV]

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And here I thought----The Church was to set the example.

It is…sadly enough, whether the fallible human beings in it do…

 

[LilyM]

Actually I’m thinking of joining or at least supporting the SSPX out of sympathy not conviction.
I’m fed up with Koran kissing and Lama-hugging.
Gaylifestyle-friendly, femofascist run institution masquerading as the true Church.

Buddy, it IS the true Church - warty imperfections and all, as the Church has had since the time of the Apostles.

No matter how much sedevacantist whiners like to pretend it isn’t.

 

[HenryV]

Buddy, it IS the true Church - warty imperfections and all, as the Church has had since the time of the Apostles.

No matter how much sedevacantist whiners like to pretend it isn’t.

I know she is the true and only bride of Christ.

I think it’s time the Holy Father removed some of her not so nice 60’s flowerchild makeup though, it does not fit with the warts and all.

 

[rwoehmke]

Actually I’m thinking of joining or at least supporting the SSPX out of sympathy not conviction.
I’m fed up with Koran kissing and Lama-hugging.
Gaylifestyle-friendly, femofascist run institution masquerading as the true Church.

So you would separate yourself from the one true Church because you disagree with the successor of Peter who currently holds the keys? Strange to say the least. I suppose Luther, Calvin, and the others all felt the same way.

 

[BobP123]

Those six are the only ones in SSPX who were excommunicated.

For the record, the Archbishop used Canon Law in his defense. And unless someone knows more than I know, the Archbishop never sought to leave the Church.

But even so, that was the state then and 19 years later they have a different relation with the Vatican.

 

[Walking_Home]

It is…sadly enough, whether the fallible human beings in it do…

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That goes without saying. It is apparent --that our late Pope–used the primacy of the papacy --to back up the excommunication of Arch. Lefebrve-----yet the Pope did not think it was important enough-----that he used it as a bargaining chip with the Orthodox.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2293413#post2293413

Quote=Amadeus
(3) The Pope’s “Primacy of Honor” is acceded by most, if not all, of the 15 autocephalous Orthodox Churches (the OCA is not invited to these ecumenical talks). The issue revolves around the Pope’s “Primacy of Jurisdiction,” or “Supremacy of Jurisdiction” as Catholics understand it. If you will recall, the late Pope John Paul II requested the Orthodox to help define how the “Petrine Ministry” of the Bishop of Rome is to be exercised if a reunion is achieved or as a prelude to reunion. As currently exercised, the “Petrine Ministry” gives the Pope the title “Supreme Pontiff” of the universal Church, with the corresponding “Supremacy of Jurisdiction,” and the charism of “Papal Infallibility” as defined by Vatican I.