Difficult passage in Catechism

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92. The whole body of the faithful cannot be mistaken in the faith, and they manifest this quality through the supernatural sense of the faith, which is that of the people as a whole when, “ from the bishops to the last of the lay faithful ”, they manifest a universal consent to truths relating to faith and morals. ”

How do you interpret it?
 
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Reading the entire article, the context, is vital. I’m not where I can easily x ref the Catechism, my gut says this is from an article about the magisterium.
 
Bill_B_NY said:
  1. The whole body of the faithful cannot be mistaken in the faith, and they manifest this quality through the supernatural sense of the faith, which is that of the people as a whole when, “ from the bishops to the last of the lay faithful ”, they manifest a universal consent to truths relating to faith and morals. ”
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It simply means the entire Church cannot defect from the faith. This is based on the promises of Christ that the gates of Hell will not prevail against His Church. If every single member of the Church were to embrace error without exception, then be definition the Church would have lost the truth.

Individuals and even large groups can defect from the faith, but the whole Church never will.
 
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Bill_B_NY said:
The whole body of the faithful cannot be mistaken in the faith, and they manifest this quality through the supernatural sense of the faith, which is that of the people as a whole when, “ from the bishops to the last of the lay faithful ”, they manifest a universal consent to truths relating to faith and morals. ”
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“The whole body of the faithful cannot be mistaken in the faith”. I guess that depends on what is meant by “the faithful”. If the term “the faithful” means “everyone who adheres correctly, without mistake, to the faith” then I get it.

Restated. “Everyone who is not mistaken about the faith (the faithful), is not mistaken in the faith”.

That doesn’t say much.
Instead, what most people think “the faithful” means is “all the people who are of the Catholic Faith” - the entire bunch of them who have been baptised and may or may not go to Church on Sunday, etc.

The whole body of (the baptised), cannot be mistaken in the faith?

I don’t get it.

and they manifest this quality through the supernatural sense of the faith, which is that of the people as a whole when, “ from the bishops to the last of the lay faithful ”, they manifest a universal consent to truths relating to faith and morals

“The whole of the faithful, manifest this quality of universal consent to the faith when they manifest a universal consent to the faith.”

It could be a bad translation, perhaps?
 
Genesis315 said:
Individuals and even large groups can defect from the faith, but the whole Church never will.
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That’s interesting and I understand.
Instead of saying “the whole body cannot be mistaken”, they could have said “there will always be at least one person on earth who still believes the Catholic Faith, thus, the entire Catholic faithful cannot all apostatize”. Large groups can defect - in fact the vast majority, but not every single one of them. I wish they said that instead because it’s a lot clearer.
The rest of the passage doesn’t support this interpretation, as I see it. It goes on to say “from the bishops to the last of the lay faithful” they manifest universal consent.
If it means that “there will always be at least one”, then this is a twisted way to say that since it appears as if there is a “people as a whole”.

People will be tempted to believe: “I am one of the faithful, I have been baptised. I am pro-abortion, pro-gay marriage, I don’t go to Church and I don’t believe in Confession. But I am one of the faithful, and the faithful cannot be mistaken.”
 
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It says when the members of the Church give “universal consent,” which excludes the erroneous interpretation you’re suggesting is possible.
 
Genesis315 said:
It says when the members of the Church give “universal consent,” which excludes the erroneous interpretation you’re suggesting is possible.
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Yes, but it’s an impossible scenario that has never happened in the history of the Church. Certainly, it is far from the case today that there is “universal consent” even on the most basic truths among Catholics.
 
True, as to today on certain things, but that is not the only way the Church is infallible. For what it’s worth, the phrase at issue is from St. Augustine, and he uses it to prove the canonicity of the book of Wisdom. At certain times there were certainly unanimity, such as to the canonical Gospels and other things. This also wards off the objections of Protestants, Mormons, and others who claim the whole Church has defected.

This phrase was quoted in Lumen Gentium, which discusses all the other ways the Church is infallible.
 
For me it is an ambiguous statement that is open to the wrong interpretation - as given. Since the whole of the faithful do not give universal consent, then this would be seen as a refutation.
I’ll guess that there are a few differences in St. Augustine’s era. A smaller body of the faithful, more control from the bishops and people had to profess the faith and mean it.
Today we have people in parishes professing the Creed but not knowing what it means, or not caring - or standing and not professing.
In any case, I appreciate the clarification. It does make sense in some ways.
Question: To the Mormon who says “the entire Church apostasized”, what is the answer from this passage? “No, it’s not possible because the whole body of the faithful cannot be mistaken and they all adhere with universal consent?” Or, “there will always be at least one soul who believes?”
The Mormon wonders why he should believe that.
We couldn’t refer him to the Catechism, I don’t think. Maybe that St. Augustine said it?
 
I get what you’re saying, but it is a traditional doctrine.
Bill_B_NY said:
Today we have people in parishes professing the Creed but not knowing what it means
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Just wanted to point out that this wolud not negate from universal consent. Consent can be implied if one intends to believe what the Church believes, and is innocently mistaken, their faith is actually that of what the Church teaches–that is what that implicitly consent to.

Pope Innocent IV explained further (Commentaria in quinque libros decretalia, Ad liber I):
There is a certain measure of faith to which all are obliged, and which is sufficient for the simple (simplicibus) and perhaps for all laymen—that is, every adult must believe that God exists and that He rewards all good people. He must also believe in the other articles of the Creed implicitly (implicite), that is, he must believe that whatever the Catholic Church believes is true…
…
Such is the power of implicit faith that there are those who say that if someone has it—that is, he believes in everything the Church believes—but his natural reason (ratione naturali) makes him hold the erroneous opinion that the Father is greater than the Son or precedes Him in time, or that the three persons are separate beings, he is neither a heretic nor a sinner, so long as he does not defend his error and so long as he believes that this is the faith of the Church. In that case, the faith of the Church replaces his opinion, since, though his opinion is false, it is not his faith, rather his faith is the faith of the Church.
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The majority of Catholics in the USA, for example, do not give consent to the teaching of the Church, even on an implicit level. When asked, they affirm their own opinion against the Church. I don’t think that quote from Pope Innocent is supporting the claim that there is a universal consent among “the whole body of the faithful” or that they “cannot be mistaken in the faith”, but rather that an implict faith is sufficient for those who accept everything the Church teaches.
I think this teaching from the Pope is necessary for everyone - even advanced theologians because it is difficult to fully even know every detail of every possible doctrine. We learn something new all of the time. But if the orientation is there: “I accept everything the Church proposes for faith”, then it doesn’t matter if we consciously know it or not.
However, that is different from those who dissent - knowing the teaching but proclaiming that “the Church is wrong”.
US Catholic, Commonweal, America, National Catholic Reporter - we find that idea proclaimed in all of those national magazines, and many other sources.
 
The holy people of God shares also in Christ’s prophetic office; it spreads abroad a living witness to Him, especially by means of a life of faith and charity and by offering to God a sacrifice of praise, the tribute of lips which give praise to His name. The entire body of the faithful, anointed as they are by the Holy One, cannot err in matters of belief. They manifest this special property by means of the whole peoples’ supernatural discernment in matters of faith when “from the Bishops down to the last of the lay faithful” they show universal agreement in matters of faith and morals. That discernment in matters of faith is aroused and sustained by the Spirit of truth. It is exercised under the guidance of the sacred teaching authority, in faithful and respectful obedience to which the people of God accepts that which is not just the word of men but truly the word of God. Through it, the people of God adheres unwaveringly to the faith given once and for all to the saints, penetrates it more deeply with right thinking, and applies it more fully in its life.
Lumen Gentium 12
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This is one of the paragraphs from Lumen Gentium that the Catechism passage is based on. LG 35 touches on the same theme. In case those help you understand what is being said. The context is the prophetic office in the Church, given to every member by the gift of the Holy Spirit.
 
So it is not by the efforts and intellect of men, but by the grace of God (Holy Spirit, spirit of truth) poured out upon the faithful.
 
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Thank you for posting that.
Honestly, I find that to be a jumble of ambiguous and contradictory statements that, the more I try to understand, the less sense it makes to me.
The first line “the holy people of God” - it’s flattering, but the people of God are not that holy and most of them do not have any prophetic office. What they spread are their own sins and errors that need to be corrected continually! This makes it sounds like they’re all saints who “cannot err in matters of belief”.
But they can and do err - quite a lot.
If it’s trying to say “in spite of the sins , errors and faults of most Catholics some remnant will always retain the faith no matter what” - then I would prefer that it said that, and not the other things that sound very unrealistic.
But truthfully, I have been trying to understand this kind of material for years and it really has never taken hold. I would never use such teaching in explaining the faith to myself or others - even the convoluted language.
I think there is a translation problem, and also it was meant as pastoral provisions, not as dogmatic statements.
I wish the Catechism might have avoided such, or clarified it more.
 
Have faith! The passage, among other things, reminds us that God has a plan for our salvation. Jesus is Lord, Master, and Redeemer. I find this passage to be full of hope. Humans are frail and fallible, but God provides what we lack. This applies to us as individuals and as the community of the Church.
 
Okay, I’ll try again, more to the point: We are going to screw up, it’s guaranteed, but God’s grace is sufficient for us.
 
Good thoughts Beryllos.
Perhaps one way I could look at it: “If you retain the faith (are one of the faithful) and embrace all that the Church teaches (even if unknown) and try to correct your errors as they become known … then, God will take care of the rest”.
 
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