Dilemma between destruction of Earth and the resurrection?

[ContegoFides]

Another dilemma I can’t fathom, but I know there’s an answer.

Modern astronomy shows us that one day our sun will die; and when it does, the Earth will be turned into plasma as it is absorbed by our expanding red giant sun (bloated by the power created by fusion of heavier elements as it runs out of Hydrogen fuel). The biosphere of the Earth will die long before then, but the Earth will certainly be annhillated in the long run.

The resurrection of the dead is an article of faith and revealed Truth that cannot be denied. Thus, we will have our physical bodies back some day.

Given this, how are we to be resurrected in our physical bodies when the Earth itself will not exist?

The problem becomes more vexing if you look at the universe as a whole. Based on current understanding of inflation, the universe will likely ultimately experience a “big rip.” Basically, the inflation of space-time will be so great that ultimately atoms will be separated at relative speeds that exceed the speed of light; essentially causing atoms and even subatomic particles to effectively break apart.

Don’t physical bodies need atoms to be constituted? If the universe itself dies, how are we to be resurrected?

My only answer is supernatural. God changes the universe, or even creates a new universe for our resurrected bodies (whether glorified or damned). However, that just seems odd to me and somehow intellectully unsatisfying.

My only consolation is that many times the apostles had no idea how Jesus would fulfill his promises in a way that made sense (like, for example, the eating of his flesh) and that only with the fullness of time did stuff like that make sense. My response so far has been the same - faith that somehow it will all make sense in the end.

But still… seems like a perfect argument for an atheist and I’d like to have some answer other than “faith.” Then again, mabye there isn’t another answer.

 

[Layp3rs0n]

If Christ were not coming back but left the universe to a physically natural end we might experience a "big rip"or or if the universe had enough mass a “big crunch”…but the universe will NOT come to its physically natural end. Christ will return and Scripture says that all the elements will be consumed by fire. This will be end of the universe as we know it. All things will be made anew. Now Revelation speaks of the Heavenly Kingdom having neither sun nor moon because Christ “will be there light”, but this may not be literal. The important thing is God has it under control. And I’m sure that the “science” of what happens to the universe at the Second Coming will be far more awesome, complex and fascinating than a hypothesized “big rip”.

 

[ContegoFides]

If Christ were not coming back but left the universe to a physically natural end we might experience a "big rip"or or if the universe had enough mass a “big crunch”…but the universe will NOT come to its physically natural end. Christ will return and Scripture says that all the elements will be consumed by fire. This will be end of the universe as we know it. All things will be made anew. Now Revelation speaks of the Heavenly Kingdom having neither sun nor moon because Christ “will be there light”, but this may not be literal. The important thing is God has it under control. And I’m sure that the “science” of what happens to the universe at the Second Coming will be far more awesome, complex and fascinating than a hypothesized “big rip”.

This is a nice answer from scripture, but it boils down to faith. I guess sometimes it comes to that.

 

[PatThompson]

An interesting question, but too fantastical for me. Why not make it even easier, even more immediate, something that you expect to happen every day, multiple times a day even?

Do you really mean it when you dismiss the possibility that “God changes the universe”?! That a miracle “just seems odd …] and somehow intellectually unsatisfying”?!

Assuming you are a theist, you are comfortable with the idea that G-d changes the natural laws of physics on your behalf when He answers your prayers, so why not believe that He will go even further eventually and keep the Sun from burning out, etc…

You can’t have it both ways, I’m afraid!

 

[ContegoFides]

An interesting question, but too fantastical for me. Why not make it even easier, even more immediate, something that you expect to happen every day, multiple times a day even?

Do you really mean it when you dismiss the possibility that “God changes the universe”?! That a miracle “just seems odd …] and somehow intellectually unsatisfying”?!

Assuming you are a theist, you are comfortable with the idea that G-d changes the natural laws of physics on your behalf when He answers your prayers, so why not believe that He will go even further eventually and keep the Sun from burning out, etc…

You can’t have it both ways, I’m afraid!

Actually, I consider myself to be a faithful Catholic in union with the Roman Pontiff.

I certainly believe in miracles. As the creator of the universe, God may alter it at will.

I don’t necessarily believe that God alters the physical universe when he answers my prayers. In fact, some of the greatest miracles in my life have much more to do with relationships, or with what would be considered improbabilities.

I certainly believe that He can and will do whatever is in His plan to make His promises come true up to and including something really, really grand like miraculously keeping the sun from burning out or even creating a whole new universe.

That being said, I have noticed patterns in the way God tends to work. Usually he does not perform physical miracles; though such miracles have occurred and are well documented. Scripture reports many miracles, and I believe those. However, on the scale of things all of these miracles are relatively small. They are also generally performed in a way that a skeptic could choose to believe some other scientific explanation, or simply believe they are not true because they have not been witnessed.

I have also noticed that God often works with the laws of nature in many, many cases.

Thus, it is reasonable to believe that God will find a way to work with the natural laws of the universe in His relationship with us. We can see this, for example, in the miracle of the Eucharist. It becomes the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ, but retains the accidentals of bread and wine. Thus, to the skeptic, “nothing” has happened.

Naturally that might not be the way things work in the end; they might be miraculous and spectacular. We don’t know the details.

Also, science and the Truth of God are not incompatible. Thus, any apparent paradox between them is going to be resolvable at some deeper level of understanding. Accordingly, again, it’s not unreasonable to seek a way how the two are compatible in a natural way. That is what I meant by “intellectually satisfying.”

However, I’m fully prepared to accept blazing trumpets and the coming of the Son of Man on a cloud as scriptures state.

 

[PatThompson]

ContegoFides thank you for your clarifications, I understand where you are coming from now.

There are lots of interesting items here… and some that would be arguably splitting hairs. From your response I realize that you would likely agree, but trying to put some sort of relative scale on G-d’s work is obviously not for us to do. Is keeping the Sun burning even without fuel really any different than the Hanukkah miracle of keeping a single flame burning without fuel?

More interesting to me is the question of non-physical miracles.

Physical miracle: Someone sees a bridge about to collapse with a bus-load of people on it, and prays to G-d to save them! G-d hears the prayer, suspends the laws of physics (which would result in the collapse) just long enough for the people to reach safety. The physical law of force = mass * acceleration no longer applies in a little bubble around the bridge support just long enough to save everyone, cool!

But then what is a non-physical miracle? A rich business woman is considering whether or not to donate a large sum of money to build a new school in India, or alternatively to leave it to her immediate family. A poor mother in India prays that her daughter could have a better life than her, go to school and be her own person. G-d then influences the rich business woman to create the school.

I guess in one way G-d could physically disable the business woman’s subway car in front of a poor girl begging for money on the street (for instance), and that might be enough to change her mind. Is that what happens when someone changes their mind and they don’t even realize it?

Or would G-d change the firing of the brain neuron’s to affect the change? But that is physical too… I like your idea that “some deeper level of understanding” will help resolve this.

But then I worry that every time science resolves a mystery, we all lose the need for gods. We used to believe, actually know, with all our heart and soul, that sacrifices to gods to was the only way to keep the sun coming up in the morning, now science has explained away those gods. As science learns how to create life where there was no life before, is this “deeper level of understanding” chipping away at our gods even further?

No easy answers, but the most interesting questions never do. Thanks for this posting!

 

[ContegoFides]

But then I worry that every time science resolves a mystery, we all lose the need for gods. We used to believe, actually know, with all our heart and soul, that sacrifices to gods to was the only way to keep the sun coming up in the morning, now science has explained away those gods. As science learns how to create life where there was no life before, is this “deeper level of understanding” chipping away at our gods even further?

No easy answers, but the most interesting questions never do. Thanks for this posting!

I have no worry whatsoever that science resolving a mystery results in the loss of the need for God. In fact, the opposite is true. The more I know, the more wonder I have at the majesty of God, the more vulnerable I feel regarding what can happen to our little eden called Earth, and the more grateful I am for His wisdom.

Additionally, any good scientist understands that you can always do another experiment. We will never know everything about the universe. Furthermore, at least to date, the physics of the center of collapsed masses (black holes) is unknowable. It’s possible that it might be utterly unknowable by Divine design because the laws of physics may completely break down or change.

Collapsed masses are ubiquitous in the universe; in fact, current theories of galaxy formation nearly requires them - particularly the big ones (2+ million solar masses). So, how can science say that it can reveal all mysteries when it can’t resolve something as absolutely as fundamental as collapsed masses?

Frankly, for that matter, quantum mechanics proves beyond any shadow of doubt that you CANNOT know everything to infinite precision. There is a “ordered randomness” to the universe that appears to inherently allow for free will; for if the universe were deterministic, then there would be no free will (my “quantum theory of God”).

Still further, positivism (science) intentionally limits itself to questions about matters that can be measured, at least in theory. Anything that cannot be measured is not a proper subject of science. There is much that cannot be measured in human nature. For example, the ubiquitous and inevitable question of our souls after death cannot be resolved by science. Thus, God will always have a place even in the most advanced scientific civilizations imaginable.

By the way, science cannot creat life. Science can create vessels for life (bodies), but the ineffable spark of life - the soul - only comes from God.

Another P.S., I call your “non-physical” miracles “relationtionship miracles.” Though that might be a distinction without a difference.

God Bless.