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mrsfrazier

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Do you think that people who leave the Church because of the abuse scandals commit spiritual suicide, or has their faith been, in a sense, murdered?

Just wondering what others think, let’s keep it nice 🙂
 
I don’t see this as taking lightly the pain of victims. I see this as pointing out that people who have never come across any abusive priest or any victim will use the scandal as an excuse to leave the Church (don’t we all know people who HAVE done that?).
 
mrsfrazier said:
Do you think that people who leave the Church because of the abuse scandals commit spiritual suicide, or has their faith been, in a sense, murdered?

Just wondering what others think, let’s keep it nice 🙂
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I believe it is almost as grievous a sin to TAKE scandal as to cause it. But I’m a convert and a hard-nose. Taking scandal (when one has not been personally touched by it) is a way of not taking personal responsibility.
 
mrsfrazier said:
Do you think that people who leave the Church because of the abuse scandals commit spiritual suicide, or has their faith been, in a sense, murdered?

Just wondering what others think, let’s keep it nice 🙂
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Their faith was not well-formed to begin with, and they don’t understand what they are doing.

It’s not “suicide” because they truly don’t think that they are “killing themselves”. They just think that they are “quitting the club” and can go find another club to join when they feel like it.

Any scandal is wounding to those of little faith, and is imputable to those who scandalize. You could, I suppose, call that “murder”, but it depends on the same conditions for calling any “killing” murder.
 
I dont think that is a lousy reason to leave the Church at all. And I dont think people who follow their conscience and love Jesus are just blind when they leave the Catholic Church… I beleive there are other factors involved though, when taking the desicion although I will not belittle the abuse-scandal. Its a fair reason… but there must be others involved… an excuse is a bad word but I think people are in other ways disillusioned with the Church today and then the scandals can be the last straw. I dont consider my self a bad catholic but I have been struggling to stay myself sometimes and I believe we all have a responsibility for this lack of live and joy in our churches.
 
GraceDK said:
I dont think that is a lousy reason to leave the Church at all. And I dont think people who follow their conscience and love Jesus are just blind when they leave the Catholic Church… I beleive there are other factors involved though, when taking the desicion although I will not belittle the abuse-scandal. Its a fair reason… but there must be others involved… an excuse is a bad word but I think people are in other ways disillusioned with the Church today and then the scandals can be the last straw. I dont consider my self a bad catholic but I have been struggling to stay myself sometimes and I believe we all have a responsibility for this lack of live and joy in our churches.
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I agree with all of your points! Well stated–we do all have a responsibility, but I believe the clergy have a responsibility as well.
 
This is a good question. When I read it, this verse from St Matthew popped into my head:

The Gospel According to ST. MATTHEW 18:6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

That’s a pretty strong sentiment from The Master.

I think people of faith are all in various stages of development in their faith. Some times we stumble upon things that cause us to wane in our faith. The sexual abuse scandal is certainly not a small thing and I can completely understand any person who is Catholic, or who was considering becoming Catholic, to take pause or even to consider leaving the Catholic Tradition because of it. There should be absolutely no condemnation by anyone towards such a person due to the severity of this scandal and due to each of us being given a measure of faith by God.

I also think we should attempt, most carefully and lovingly, to speak to those that would leave because of the scandal to return and why we think they should. If they chose not too, then again no condemnation for that decision.
mrsfrazier said:
Do you think that people who leave the Church because of the abuse scandals commit spiritual suicide, or has their faith been, in a sense, murdered?

Just wondering what others think, let’s keep it nice 🙂
Click to expand...
 
People who are pedophiles always find a way to be around children. That happens in any organization that serves children. The church is not to blame for that. As for the older children who were victimized by homosexual priests I think church explanations, that I have seen, have downplayed the severity of the crimes committed against them. These crimes in most instances could not be forseen, and again I don’t blame the church. The thing that I decided to walk away over, (granted I was not extremely devout or educated in the faith) is the greater scandal. the people who reassigned these criminals. They are the greater criminals and although it is not Christian or charitable, I hope they burn in a very special corner of hell. Church management seemed to do a cost benefit analysis and decided to relocate degenerate sexual predators to unsuspecting parishes. It seemed a business decision without regard for the lives destroyed. How many people will never know the reality of Christ because of their decision? How many parent’s have cursed God over their children’s suffering? Ford Motors did a similar thing in the 1970s with the Pinto. The gas tank would explode when rear ended hard enough but they decided it would be cheaper to pay the wrongful death settlements than to re-engineer or scrap the design.
Thankfully my faith in Jesus Christ never wavered, and the words of a kind nun helped me realize that I had allowed the actions of men, human beings, turn me away from the true church. I was lucky. Dan
 
Trust the Holy Spirit will guide them back, and dont give them any more reasons to get honked off until that happens. IOW, be a light yourself and the rest will follow.

Sometimes, we try however well meaningly to rush someone back into the church and we are simply not QUALIFYED to do that.

Be a light, listen and try to offer practical help.

Sorry for the rant
 
mpb74 said:
People who are pedophiles always find a way to be around children. That happens in any organization that serves children. The church is not to blame for that. As for the older children who were victimized by homosexual priests I think church explanations, that I have seen, have downplayed the severity of the crimes committed against them. These crimes in most instances could not be forseen, and again I don’t blame the church. The thing that I decided to walk away over, (granted I was not extremely devout or educated in the faith) is the greater scandal. the people who reassigned these criminals. They are the greater criminals and although it is not Christian or charitable, I hope they burn in a very special corner of hell. Church management seemed to do a cost benefit analysis and decided to relocate degenerate sexual predators to unsuspecting parishes. It seemed a business decision without regard for the lives destroyed. How many people will never know the reality of Christ because of their decision? How many parent’s have cursed God over their children’s suffering? Ford Motors did a similar thing in the 1970s with the Pinto. The gas tank would explode when rear ended hard enough but they decided it would be cheaper to pay the wrongful death settlements than to re-engineer or scrap the design.
Thankfully my faith in Jesus Christ never wavered, and the words of a kind nun helped me realize that I had allowed the actions of men, human beings, turn me away from the true church. I was lucky. Dan
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Yes, that is what I still don’t understand. At least the priests had a psychological problem :rolleyes: as an excuse, but how could they be moved around by others who did not have those problems? That is a tough one, I still have no answer.
 
mrsfrazier said:
Yes, that is what I still don’t understand. At least the priests had a psychological problem :rolleyes: as an excuse, but how could they be moved around by others who did not have those problems? That is a tough one, I still have no answer.
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Thats good. Because none of us have an answer to why sin happens. It just does in the fallen state we are in.

Of course, sin is a large topic, but I fail to see the reason it is connected to the OP in this case.
 
I left post # 8 but I failed to answer the original posters question.
My spiritual well being was assaulted and left in serious risk of death. In a sense I was a willing victim as I failed to arm myself with the tools neccesary to protect my faith. I won’t leave myself open to such assaults again.
 
mpb74 said:
I left post # 8 but I failed to answer the original posters question.
My spiritual well being was assaulted and left in serious risk of death. In a sense I was a willing victim as I failed to arm myself with the tools neccesary to protect my faith. I won’t leave myself open to such assaults again.
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You are in my prayers, and all people of good will that see this post.
 
Hellisreal,
Thank you for the kind thoughts. I was totally lost in my ignorance. I learned more about Catholicism in two weeks on CAF than I did going to Catholic grammar school.
After two weeks I am merely bewildered in my ignorance, but I believe I have rediscovered the right path. If I stay within the guardrails and put one foot in front of the other and follow directions I will be headed to a destination, even in this mortal life, that is far better than the one I am walking away from. Walking away is painful but neccessary.I have always been amazed at the grace granted me in this life, thru no virtue of mine, to allow me to escape some of the horrible choices I have made. But for the grace of God, I should be dead, buried , and have my eternal destiny sealed. Wow Dan
 
mpb74 said:
Hellisreal,
Thank you for the kind thoughts. I was totally lost in my ignorance. I learned more about Catholicism in two weeks on CAF than I did going to Catholic grammar school.
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🙂 I believe it…! I don’t LIKE that I believe it, but I believe it.
After two weeks I am merely bewildered in my ignorance, but I believe I have rediscovered the right path. If I stay within the guardrails and put one foot in front of the other and follow directions I will be headed to a destination, even in this mortal life, that is far better than the one I am walking away from. Walking away is painful but neccessary.I have always been amazed at the grace granted me in this life, thru no virtue of mine, to allow me to escape some of the horrible choices I have made. But for the grace of God, I should be dead, buried , and have my eternal destiny sealed. Wow Dan
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Doing a “random walk” as the path to God was a horrible experinece for me, and horribly complicated and made extremely painful my entire childhood and young-to-middle adulthood.

I’ve always had a “problem” with authority, mostly because none of them in my experience were worth being called “authorities”, as they led me nowhere but in circles.

Then, this highly intellectual person (which is more a curse than an “achievement” and is simply a description of the way my mind works and not a badge of honor by any means), when I found the catechism,… bwanggggggg,… YOU GOT ME…! 🙂
 
mrsfrazier said:
Yes, that is what I still don’t understand. At least the priests had a psychological problem :rolleyes: as an excuse, but how could they be moved around by others who did not have those problems? That is a tough one, I still have no answer.
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I have heard this explanation which makes sense but in no way lessen the horror of the whole situation.

The priests in question usually did receive some kind of counseling or ‘treatment’ however the general belief at the time was that this type of behavoir was very controllable (psychiatrists and police now say that pediophiles have a very high recindivisim rate) and the Bishops had seen contrition from the priests in question. So, basically, no one thought a specific priest would sin again in this way. Of course, we now know that that wasn’t true. And even at the time no one should have been moved more than once!

It is a horrible stain on the church. What is more horrifying to me is how much this happens just in the world in general. Our diocese now requires a 4 hour training, background checks, etc from anyone working (paid or volunteer) with children. The local school district, scouting groups, etc do not do anywhere near that level of checking or training.
 
Being a victim, whether it was a sexual molestation, or other acts of violence, could seriously damage a person’s faith, or become a road block toward it.

I knew a young boy, who was dragged out of a confessional booth by his ear, at the hand of a grumpy priest and yelled at in front of a large crowd of people, who were waiting to go into confession, for not doing a good examination of his conscience. The priest threw him into a pew and sternly told him to examine his conscience. The priest returned to hearing confessions and left the boy crying and humiliated. He eventually ran out of the church, never to return.

I don’t blame the victims for lack of faith, but the bad priest who caused the pain.

Jim
 
It is a stain on the Church. However the Church is not to blame. People are to blame. People who hid under the color of the Churches authority.

I’ve tried not to read too much about the events. So much of the media hates Christianity in general, and Catholicism in particular, that their “news” is more likely to be a bigoted editorial. A hit peice if you will. On the other hand,the institutional Church, like all institututions, has an invested interest in phrasology that limits fault and impact in the mind of the reader. I would find it hard to fault the Church for taking that approach in this instance. Keeping one from the Church, may mean keeping him from the gates of heaven.

I hope the Church has instituted an outreach to these victims so some of their pain may be eased, and that they can come back to Christ.

Several years ago, as a Boy Scout Dad, I was given a course in child protection. The BSA has a policy that no adult is to be alone with one child, except his own. It is simple and easy to implement. It also protects the adult against false allegations.
 
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