Discernment - What is the deal?

[CSN]

I understand that discernment is considered the process where one is supposed to ascertain whether or not they are ‘cut out’ to become clergy, but in my view, isn’t every single person called in this way?

I feel that discernment is the process of removing the doubts and excuses in one’s life, and if in the alternative one happens to ‘discern’ that they are not so cut out, in reality they have failed to be the best they can be.

Again, to me discernment is a process of firming one’s convictions to give it all up - everything - and anyone claiming to discern and ultimately deciding not to become clergy has, regarding the question of “whether I will do my best or my second best for God”, decided to do their second best.

I’m sorry if this sound harsh, but this is what I feel. The concept of discernment has always struck me as a bit hokey. “Gee, does God want me to serve him 100% or 75% ?”

Yeah, sure marriage is a vocation, but there will always be families and always be children, but there are very few real 24/7 gatherers. Also, I feel this is more strongly applicable today, when almost every single priest and nun seems over 60 years old…

 

[pumpkinbeast]

Some people are called to the priesthood. Some ARE NOT, and are called to serve God 100% through the single or married life. I take offense to your comment that those who are married have somehow chosen their own will, even just partly, over God’s. Without married couples, there would be no clergy!!! Married couples can serve God just as fully as those who are called to the priesthood/religious life.

 

[CSN]

Yes, I expected some to take offense, and argue that without marriage there would be no people…

But what about the parts in the Bible that say (I believe it was Paul) that if you are not married, don’t seek marriage. And if you can’t control yourself, you may marry - as a concession. If you marry, you have done well, but if you do not marry, you have done better…

So to me, discernment should be considered the process of removing the doubt and the fear, not so much trying to figure out what God wants one to do, because if that’s the question, I would think the answer is fairly clear – sacrifice your life for God…

 

[Johndigger]

It is true that some vocations are higher than others. Marriage is great. Celibacy is better.
Council of Trent:

If anyone says that it is not better and more godly to live in virginity or in the unmarried state than to marry, let him be anathema.

This doesn’t mean that everyone is called to be celibate, though - The world would end! (Had to add that, of course )
John Paul II:

It can be seen sufficiently clearly that here it is not a question of diminishing the value of matrimony in favor of continence, nor of lessening the value of one in comparison with the other.

Just because celibacy is higher than marriage. This doesn’t devalue the dignity of marriage in any way - in fact, it enhances it.

We all have a general vocation, that is the worldwide call to live in holiness with Christ and His Church. Then we have a specific vocation within the general, that is Priesthood, Religious life, Consecrated Virgin or Marriage.

JD

 

[Goblin_Taters]

Originally Posted by Johndigger:

We all have a general vocation, that is the worldwide call to live in holiness with Christ and His Church. Then we have a specific vocation within the general, that is Priesthood, Religious life, Consecrated Virgin or Marriage.

Wll put. I would only add that marriage and the priesthood are not mutually exclusive, IMHO.

 

[chris_molter]

Wll put. I would only add that marriage and the priesthood are not mutually exclusive, IMHO.

It isn’t just your “HO”, it’s the opinion of the Universal Church as well. However, the majority of folks here are Latin Rite Catholics whose Church holds to the discipline of Clerical Celibacy. So, while the “norm” for the Latin Rite is a celibate clergy (and there ARE exceptions within the Latin Rite), the Catholic Church also allows the other Sui Juris Churches to determine whether to apply the discipline of celibacy or not.

Personally, I agree with Pope John Paul II’s reaffirmation of the blessing that clerical celibacy is for the Latin Church.

 

[Goblin_Taters]

Originally Posted by chris molter:

It isn’t just your “HO”, it’s the opinion of the Universal Church as well.

Well, that’s what I meant: “In [Holy] Mother’s Honest Opinion”

However, the majority of folks here are Latin Rite Catholics whose Church holds to the discipline of Clerical Celibacy.

True.

So, while the “norm” for the Latin Rite is a celibate clergy (and there ARE exceptions within the Latin Rite), the Catholic Church also allows the other Sui Juris Churches to determine whether to apply the discipline of celibacy or not.

Very true.

Personally, I agree with Pope John Paul II’s reaffirmation of the blessing that clerical celibacy is for the Latin Church.

And it’s a blessing for the black clergy in the East as well.

 

[Johndigger]

Indeed. Celibacy is not a fundamental part of the Priesthood. But the Priesthood and Marriage still two specific vocations - even if they’re not mutually exclusive.

Just as being a Monk doesn’t exclude you from being a Priest but they are still two specific vocation.

Thanks for making that clearer, though, folks. I can see it might have caused a little confusion.

JD,
Latin rite celibacy, FTW.

 

[CSN]

Ok,

Aside from some of the other churches which do permit married priests, the “main” church of which I am pretty sure we are all members does forbid married priests.

So then, I ask the question again for those who feel as if they are discerning:

If you feel this way, don’t you already know what the answer is (i.e. DO IT) ? And then isn’t the process of discernment really the process of overcoming doubt and fear, and for those who ‘discern’ that they are not called, they in end have not overcome their doubts and fears ?

 

[chris_molter]

Ok,

Aside from some of the other churches which do permit married priests, the “main” church of which I am pretty sure we are all members does forbid married priests.

Just to be a big pain in the rear, the Latin Rite doesn’t forbid married priests. I know of quite a few solidly orthodox married Priests who were ordained under the Pastoral Provision (if you’re curious, check out www.pastoralprovision.org)

So then, I ask the question again for those who feel as if they are discerning:

If you feel this way, don’t you already know what the answer is (i.e. DO IT) ? And then isn’t the process of discernment really the process of overcoming doubt and fear, and for those who ‘discern’ that they are not called, they in end have not overcome their doubts and fears ?

Well, overcoming doubts and fears is a big part of discernment to religious life. I’m not sure it’s necessary to set up a “marriage vs celibacy” dichotomy within one’s discernment process. Sometimes the primary obstacles facing a man in the discernment process have little or nothing to do with the choice to be married or not. I think if you asked most men who discerned a call and came to the conclusion that they weren’t called to be clerics, they wouldn’t say so much that they WEREN’T called to be ordained, or that they failed to overcome their fears and doubts, but that they were called by God to marriage and (physical) fatherhood.

 

[pumpkinbeast]

I think three issues are being confused here:

1. that celibacy is the better vocation to be called to
2. whether one can serve God 100% if they are NOT called to the better vocation
3. whether priests can marry

Celibacy is seen by the Church as the better vocation, and understandably. We need priests, and I think celibate priests make a lot of sense. Being a biological father is a 247 job, and same as being a spiritual father. It would be tough to hold down two 24/7 jobs. Some men are called to both vocations, I suppose, as the Mother Church, in her authority, has seen fit to allow some to be both. Being celibate also shows an example of what life will be like in heaven, aka no sex, just complete devotion to God. Married couples also image another aspect of heaven: the masculine giving to the feminine, the feminine receiving the gift and giving back. On earth, that’s imaged, obviously, in the husband and wife. In heaven, it will be God and humanity. We need both of these vocations on earth.

Now, just because celibacy is the better vocation to be called to doesn’t mean that everyone should be celibate, in the same way that being a doctor might be the better job to have than a construction worker. We need both doctors and construction workers. If you have the gifts and the call to be a doctor, you should probably be a doctor (if that’s what God wants you to do, etc.). But, if God hasn’t given you the gifts needed to be a doctor, you shouldn’t be one. For one, you’ll kill people. For the other, we need people who aren’t doctors. We need construction workers to build the hospitals that doctors work in. In the same way we need married people and celibate people, like most priests, not to mention the numerous orders of Brothers and Sisters. So, if you’re called to be a priest, go be a priest! If you’re not, don’t worry about it. Follow God’s unique call for you, whether to the married life or to something else. The process of discernment for many is to figure out if they really do have a call to the priesthood or religious life, to celibacy or not. People sometimes do need to go through that growth process of throwing off doubts, fears, etc. It’s normal, it’s human, and people shouldn’t be belittled for that.

The bottom line: follow God’s call for you, whatever it is, so you can serve Him 100%.

For clarification: I was insulted by the OP’s statement that married people couldn’t serve God 100%, not that celibacy was the better vocation.

As for whether priests can be married or not, isn’t that a bit off topic? I’m sure it’s been discussed many times before on the forums.

 

[Goblin_Taters]

Originally Posted by CSN:

Aside from some of the other churches which do permit married priests, the “main” church of which I am pretty sure we are all members does forbid married priests.

All the Churches in the Catholic communion are of equal dignity. There is not a “main” church, although the Latin Church by far tends to dominate (in terms of membership, theology and influence) the Catholic communion.

 

[Goblin_Taters]

Originally Posted by pumpkinbeast:

Celibacy is seen by the Church as the better vocation, and understandably.

The Church always has highly valued this life.

We need priests, and I think celibate priests make a lot of sense. Being a biological father is a 247 job, and same as being a spiritual father. It would be tough to hold down two 24/7 jobs.

It’s tough to live a Christian life. WIth God, though, nothing is impossible.

Some men are called to both vocations, I suppose, as the Mother Church, in her authority, has seen fit to allow some to be both.

True dat.

For clarification: I was insulted by the OP’s statement that married people couldn’t serve God 100%, not that celibacy was the better vocation.

I agree with you very much here. It’s a great error to think that people who choose celibacy are, ipso facto, more holy than those who choose marriage.

 

[Stillkickin]

There is more than one vocation one can follow. That is why Marriage and Holy Orders are BOTH Sacraments. Some people are call to the religious life, some are called to married life - no matter which, we all are called to serve God!
Married people are called to service as lay members of the Church. Through assisting in lay activities in our Parishes and even more importantly the proper formation of our children. Some are called to both vocations. By being married and then later in life becoming Deacons.
Sorry to be “harsh” back, but your thinking is very narrow minded and I don’t believe it represents God’s plan for each and every one of us. Discerment is very very important, we want our Priests to be Priests for the right reasons and discernment is the process of ensuring that the Priesthood is really what they are called to do.

Stillkickin

 

[edwest2]

If you’re thinking about being a priest, I recommend talking to a priest. If you’re thinking about marriage, I suggest doing the same.

As to marriage, Jesus said, “This gift is not for everyone.” And it is a gift. A wife is from the Lord.

Out commitment to God can be equally great in either state. I think living your life as a husband/father, mother/wife is just as important. The Bible clearly says, that under this circumstance, this is better, under another circumstance, something else. Back to marriage, Jesus said, “Let he who can take it, take it.” Not everyone can handle a commitment like marriage or the priesthood. Some are called to be single. We are all called as different parts of the Body of Christ, and each part is needed.

Pray to the Holy Spirit for discernment.

God bless,
Ed

 

[CSN]

Celibacy is seen by the Church as the better vocation, and understandably. We need priests, and I think celibate priests make a lot of sense.

Ok, we agree that there is a “better” here.

Now, just because celibacy is the better vocation to be called to doesn’t mean that everyone should be celibate, in the same way that being a doctor might be the better job to have than a construction worker. We need both doctors and construction workers. If you have the gifts and the call to be a doctor, you should probably be a doctor (if that’s what God wants you to do, etc.). But, if God hasn’t given you the gifts needed to be a doctor, you shouldn’t be one. For one, you’ll kill people. For the other, we need people who aren’t doctors.

Here is where I start to disagree. I believe that if someone devotes their life to becoming a priest, God will give them the tools to do so. Fr. Corapi said as much, when he, despite internal and external obstacles, finished the first in his class. There are also many who have said that, when preaching, the Holy Spirit takes over. So I believe that, to follow the analogy, if someone really devoted themselves to becoming a doctor (priest), they could in almost every case, through God’s grace.

For clarification: I was insulted by the OP’s statement that married people couldn’t serve God 100%, not that celibacy was the better vocation.

Why does this insult you? Married people by necessity have other non-Godly concerns, i.e. each other, their children, finances, work etc. The Bible even says when a man marries, he must divide his concerns between God and his wife.

Also, consider this: almost every single saint that I know was celibate. This is not to say that married couples cannot become saints. However, it is telling that almost all that have been recognized as saints by the Church were celibate. Actually, the only saint I can think of right now who may not have been celibate is Peter, who I understand had a wife.

 

[CSN]

I agree with you very much here. It’s a great error to think that people who choose celibacy are, ipso facto, more holy than those who choose marriage.

Not ipso facto, but I don’t see how you can deny this as a general statement.

 

[CSN]

There is more than one vocation one can follow. That is why Marriage and Holy Orders are BOTH Sacraments. Some people are call to the religious life, some are called to married life - no matter which, we all are called to serve God!
Married people are called to service as lay members of the Church. Through assisting in lay activities in our Parishes and even more importantly the proper formation of our children. Some are called to both vocations. By being married and then later in life becoming Deacons.
Sorry to be “harsh” back, but your thinking is very narrow minded and I don’t believe it represents God’s plan for each and every one of us. Discerment is very very important, we want our Priests to be Priests for the right reasons and discernment is the process of ensuring that the Priesthood is really what they are called to do.

Stillkickin

I agree with this, but with the caveat (which probably explains my entire position here) that if one is really in a state of ‘discernment’, then I believe one is already being called by God.

 

[pumpkinbeast]

Ok, we agree that there is a “better” here.

Here is where I start to disagree. I believe that if someone devotes their life to becoming a priest, God will give them the tools to do so. Fr. Corapi said as much, when he, despite internal and external obstacles, finished the first in his class. There are also many who have said that, when preaching, the Holy Spirit takes over. So I believe that, to follow the analogy, if someone really devoted themselves to becoming a doctor (priest), they could in almost every case, through God’s grace.

Then we must agree to disagree. Now you’re hitting the realm of personal beliefs. I believe that God has given each of us a certain vocation in life, along with the gifts needed to serve Him through that. You believe (correct me if I’m wrong) that we choose the way we want to serve God, and then He’ll give us the gifts we need, and that he wants everyone to be a priest, or I guess a nun in my case, seeing as I can’t be a priest, being a woman.

Why does this insult you? Married people by necessity have other non-Godly concerns, i.e. each other, their children, finances, work etc. The Bible even says when a man marries, he must divide his concerns between God and his wife.

You can strive to love someone, aka your spouse and your children, in a Godly way. You can approach work and finances with God in mind, asking Him for guidance every step of the way. These things can distract people from God, but they can also become opportunities to give their lives more fully over to Him.

Also, consider this: almost every single saint that I know was celibate. This is not to say that married couples cannot become saints. However, it is telling that almost all that have been recognized as saints by the Church were celibate. Actually, the only saint I can think of right now who may not have been celibate is Peter, who I understand had a wife.

ignatius.com/ViewProduct.aspx?SID=1&Product_ID=325&SKU=MSAB-P&ReturnURL=search.aspx%3f%3fSID%3d1%26SearchCriteria%3dmarried+saints
There you go, a whole book full of married saints.

 

[CSN]

Then we must agree to disagree. Now you’re hitting the realm of personal beliefs. I believe that God has given each of us a certain vocation in life, along with the gifts needed to serve Him through that. You believe (correct me if I’m wrong) that we choose the way we want to serve God, and then He’ll give us the gifts we need, and that he wants everyone to be a priest, or I guess a nun in my case, seeing as I can’t be a priest, being a woman.

Yes, this is entirely my own personal take on things. I think you summarized them clearly, except I wish to clarify that what I’m mostly focusing on is the process of discernment – to me, true discernment is in most cases the person wanting to ‘bury my father’ or ‘say goodbye to my family’. If someone is really discerning, then God is calling them. The drawn-out process is one of overcoming doubt and fear, and in the end, if someone ‘discerns’ that they are not called, they have rejected God’s calling in this particular instance.

There you go, a whole book full of married saints.

Well I’ll be damned. :doh2:

Mind you, their examples include Mary and Joseph (celibates), St. Teresa’s parents (not saints), and St. Thomas More (martyr).

Not really “Saint Abigail, patron saint of soccer moms and carpooling”… :byzsoc: