Discouraged: You can't win

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Hello everyone. I am a recent Catholic Revert. I have returned to the Catholic Church after years of attending non denominational Protestant churches. The happenings at Medjugorje is what has stirred up spirit to return to Catholicism. I have a great love for The BVM.

I must admit I am somewhat discouraged by all the altering views on faith. It seems whatever choice one makes there are people of faith who will condemn that choice. You just can’t win! People will condemn you for being a Catholic. People will condemn you for being a Protestant. There is a purgatory, there isn’t a purgatory. Catholics practice idol worship. A visionary saw the Pope in hell! Salvation is by faith alone, lest you boast. The Catholic Church went apostate. It goes on, and on, and on and on… And all the while everyone hold steadfastly that they have the one true faith.

It gets very discouraging and tiresome.

Sorry for being a downer. I just had to share my discouragement.
 
Read up on the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and you will be better prepared to defend the faith and silence the critics.
 
Hello everyone. I am a recent Catholic Revert. I have returned to the Catholic Church after years of attending non denominational Protestant churches. The happenings at Medjugorje is what has stirred up spirit to return to Catholicism. I have a great love for The BVM.

-snip-

It gets very discouraging and tiresome.

Sorry for being a downer. I just had to share my discouragement.
Hi AnotherMe,

Welcome to CAF and thank you so much for posting here.

You, in your post, sum up the crux of the problem in many matters of faith and the reason for the mass schism from the Church which has occurred over the last 2000 years: authority. No faith or doctrine can have any foundation without authority.

The Catholic Church, by virtue of the teaching Magisterium and the Pope, has direct authority from Christ to teach His Church on earth, infallibly.
Code:
Jesus gave all mankind doctrines directly from Heaven, which taught man the Divine law!  This law, however, was and is in need of interpretation.  The Bible is one source of this Divine Revelation, and tradition is another source.  The Church has always used both in her teachings on morality, but many Protestants have presented another view, one which states that only the Bible has infallible teaching authority.  This claim is unsubstantiated by scripture, history, and reason, and can be easily proven false.  A living authority is needed in the Church to interpret and explain the scriptures.

The great majority of Protestants follow the doctrine of sola scriptura, “the Bible alone,” and take the view that only the Bible has authority in matters of faith and morals, and the faithful are to take their knowledge of Divine Revelation directly from the Bible.  This claim goes against the Bible, for the Bible itself says that Sacred Tradition is to be followed alongside Sacred Scripture. (2Thess 2:15)  Additionally, history shows that it was the Church, not the Bible, that decided what books should be in the Bible and should be considered inspired.  Sola scriptura also goes again common sense.  Any written document intended to have an important role in governing a people or a code of law must have a living, continuing authority to interpret it, because words can be easily interpreted in any number of ways by different people.  This is illustrated by the fact that there are so many protestant denominations, all with tiny varying beliefs.  This is the product of the idea that every man can be divinely inspired by God to interpret scripture: chaos.  For all of these reasons, sola scriptura is not a doctrine that should be followed by Christians.

Jesus directly instituted a living authority in Peter, the first Pope.  In Matt 16:18, He said, “And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.”  Jesus then gave him the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven.  This is a very clear message; Jesus established Peter’s teaching authority at that moment.  It is clear that Jesus gave this authority to the office of Pope, not just to Peter, because He knew that Peter would not live till the end of time to lead His Church, but rather, Jesus intended that this office be passed down till the end of time.

This teaching office is infallible, for Jesus said, “I am with you always, even unto the consummation of the world,” in Matt. 28:20.  By this He meant that Peter and his successors would never err when teaching in matters of faith and morals.  Protestants quote Gal. 2:11-14 as a proof that infallibility is false, in which Paul rebuked Peter for weakness in his office.  This red herring argument is not legitimate.  Peter’s mistake was one in his personal life, and no man is without sin.  His failure in personal virtue does not affect the fact that Christ vested him with authority to declare dogma on matters of faith and morals.

Furthermore, Peter shows his authority many times in Scripture.  In the gospels and the book of Acts, Peter was clearly portrayed as the leader of the apostles.  In Acts 15:7-12, there was a dispute concerning a doctrinal matter.  When the council was in the heat of argument, Peter rose and declared his opinion on the matter, and all present fell silent, accepting his authority.  When Paul converted and sought counsel to begin his ministry, he went to Peter in Jerusalem, not another of the apostles.  (Gal 1:18-19)  All this makes it clear that Peter’s position as a leader of the apostles was undisputed.

Early Church fathers, too, recognized the primacy of the Bishop of Rome, the Pope.  St. Irenaeus wrote that, “Christians must be united to the Church of Rome in order to maintain the Apostolic tradition.”  He stressed the importance of obedience to the Pope and spoke of it as if it was common knowledge in the Church.  The Roman persecutors, as well, knew full well who the leader of the Church was, for they killed every pope but one in the first 200 years of the Church!

Peter, the first pope, had possession of absolute authority over the Church, and had the office of proclaiming doctrine on matters of faith and morals.  Christ Himself promised that He would guide the pope to guide the Church until the end of time, (Matt 28:20) thus this office was passed down by St. Peter all the way down to the present day.  This infallibility is what enables the Church to be a bastion of truth in the world, for she never errs in doctrine.  God, by this Divine help, protects the Church to this day from doctrinal error, and leads the faithful down the narrow path to Heaven.
This is just a small, amateur attempt of explaining the Church’s doctrine of infallibility, but I hope it helps you in some way.

Here is a link to a book that might also be helpful in explaining this teaching.
 
Hello everyone. I am a recent Catholic Revert. I have returned to the Catholic Church after years of attending non denominational Protestant churches. The happenings at Medjugorje is what has stirred up spirit to return to Catholicism. I have a great love for The BVM.

I must admit I am somewhat discouraged by all the altering views on faith. It seems whatever choice one makes there are people of faith who will condemn that choice. You just can’t win! People will condemn you for being a Catholic. People will condemn you for being a Protestant. There is a purgatory, there isn’t a purgatory. Catholics practice idol worship. A visionary saw the Pope in hell! Salvation is by faith alone, lest you boast. The Catholic Church went apostate. It goes on, and on, and on and on… And all the while everyone hold steadfastly that they have the one true faith.

It gets very discouraging and tiresome.

Sorry for being a downer. I just had to share my discouragement.
Well I think you got marvelous answers (I learn more about my faith here than I did during twelve years of Catholic school!) :eek: All I can say is this: I HEAR YOU, been there, done that. Keep your eyes on Jesus, read the Catechism as suggested (NOT easy reading btw), and remember where all this doubt and confusion comes from: the Liar. Stay close to the Sacraments and trust Him. You’ll be amazed by what happens.
 
Hi AnotherMe,

Welcome to CAF and thank you so much for posting here.

You, in your post, sum up the crux of the problem in many matters of faith and the reason for the mass schism from the Church which has occurred over the last 2000 years: authority. No faith or doctrine can have any foundation without authority.

The Catholic Church, by virtue of the teaching Magisterium and the Pope, has direct authority from Christ to teach His Church on earth, infallibly.
Code:
Jesus gave all mankind doctrines directly from Heaven, which taught man the Divine law!  This law, however, was and is in need of interpretation.  The Bible is one source of this Divine Revelation, and tradition is another source.  The Church has always used both in her teachings on morality, but many Protestants have presented another view, one which states that only the Bible has infallible teaching authority.  This claim is unsubstantiated by scripture, history, and reason, and can be easily proven false.  A living authority is needed in the Church to interpret and explain the scriptures.

The great majority of Protestants follow the doctrine of sola scriptura, “the Bible alone,” and take the view that only the Bible has authority in matters of faith and morals, and the faithful are to take their knowledge of Divine Revelation directly from the Bible.  This claim goes against the Bible, for the Bible itself says that Sacred Tradition is to be followed alongside Sacred Scripture. (2Thess 2:15)  Additionally, history shows that it was the Church, not the Bible, that decided what books should be in the Bible and should be considered inspired.  Sola scriptura also goes again common sense.  Any written document intended to have an important role in governing a people or a code of law must have a living, continuing authority to interpret it, because words can be easily interpreted in any number of ways by different people.  This is illustrated by the fact that there are so many protestant denominations, all with tiny varying beliefs.  This is the product of the idea that every man can be divinely inspired by God to interpret scripture: chaos.  For all of these reasons, sola scriptura is not a doctrine that should be followed by Christians.

Jesus directly instituted a living authority in Peter, the first Pope.  In Matt 16:18, He said, “And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.”  Jesus then gave him the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven.  This is a very clear message; Jesus established Peter’s teaching authority at that moment.  It is clear that Jesus gave this authority to the office of Pope, not just to Peter, because He knew that Peter would not live till the end of time to lead His Church, but rather, Jesus intended that this office be passed down till the end of time.

This teaching office is infallible, for Jesus said, “I am with you always, even unto the consummation of the world,” in Matt. 28:20.  By this He meant that Peter and his successors would never err when teaching in matters of faith and morals.  Protestants quote Gal. 2:11-14 as a proof that infallibility is false, in which Paul rebuked Peter for weakness in his office.  This red herring argument is not legitimate.  Peter’s mistake was one in his personal life, and no man is without sin.  His failure in personal virtue does not affect the fact that Christ vested him with authority to declare dogma on matters of faith and morals.

Furthermore, Peter shows his authority many times in Scripture.  In the gospels and the book of Acts, Peter was clearly portrayed as the leader of the apostles.  In Acts 15:7-12, there was a dispute concerning a doctrinal matter.  When the council was in the heat of argument, Peter rose and declared his opinion on the matter, and all present fell silent, accepting his authority.  When Paul converted and sought counsel to begin his ministry, he went to Peter in Jerusalem, not another of the apostles.  (Gal 1:18-19)  All this makes it clear that Peter’s position as a leader of the apostles was undisputed.

Early Church fathers, too, recognized the primacy of the Bishop of Rome, the Pope.  St. Irenaeus wrote that, “Christians must be united to the Church of Rome in order to maintain the Apostolic tradition.”  He stressed the importance of obedience to the Pope and spoke of it as if it was common knowledge in the Church.  The Roman persecutors, as well, knew full well who the leader of the Church was, for they killed every pope but one in the first 200 years of the Church!

Peter, the first pope, had possession of absolute authority over the Church, and had the office of proclaiming doctrine on matters of faith and morals.  Christ Himself promised that He would guide the pope to guide the Church until the end of time, (Matt 28:20) thus this office was passed down by St. Peter all the way down to the present day.  This infallibility is what enables the Church to be a bastion of truth in the world, for she never errs in doctrine.  God, by this Divine help, protects the Church to this day from doctrinal error, and leads the faithful down the narrow path to Heaven.
This is just a small, amateur attempt of explaining the Church’s doctrine of infallibility, but I hope it helps you in some way.

Here is a link to a book that might also be helpful in explaining this teaching.
Well said!! Nobody else couldn’t have explained it as well as you did!! Thank you!! Now I understand about sola scriptura and about Peter as well. Thank you.
 
Well said!! Nobody else couldn’t have explained it as well as you did!! Thank you!! Now I understand about sola scriptura and about Peter as well. Thank you.
I’m glad it was helpful. 🙂
 
Hello everyone. I am a recent Catholic Revert. I have returned to the Catholic Church after years of attending non denominational Protestant churches. The happenings at Medjugorje is what has stirred up spirit to return to Catholicism. I have a great love for The BVM.

I must admit I am somewhat discouraged by all the altering views on faith. It seems whatever choice one makes there are people of faith who will condemn that choice. You just can’t win! People will condemn you for being a Catholic. People will condemn you for being a Protestant. There is a purgatory, there isn’t a purgatory. Catholics practice idol worship. A visionary saw the Pope in hell! Salvation is by faith alone, lest you boast. The Catholic Church went apostate. It goes on, and on, and on and on… And all the while everyone hold steadfastly that they have the one true faith.

It gets very discouraging and tiresome.

Sorry for being a downer. I just had to share my discouragement.
I have been a Catholic and a Protestant.

I wish we could all accept one another as Christians.
 
Hello everyone. I am a recent Catholic Revert. I have returned to the Catholic Church after years of attending non denominational Protestant churches. The happenings at Medjugorje is what has stirred up spirit to return to Catholicism. I have a great love for The BVM.

I must admit I am somewhat discouraged by all the altering views on faith. It seems whatever choice one makes there are people of faith who will condemn that choice. You just can’t win! People will condemn you for being a Catholic. People will condemn you for being a Protestant. There is a purgatory, there isn’t a purgatory. Catholics practice idol worship. A visionary saw the Pope in hell! Salvation is by faith alone, lest you boast. The Catholic Church went apostate. It goes on, and on, and on and on… And all the while everyone hold steadfastly that they have the one true faith.

It gets very discouraging and tiresome.

Sorry for being a downer. I just had to share my discouragement.
This “damn if you don’t and damn if you do” situation is not unique to religion. I guess whatever you choose to do or be there will always be someone more than willing to criticize you.

Take life in general. If you choose to get married, people will criticize you, if you choose to stay single, people will still criticize you, get divorced, people will criticize you. Choose to have kids people will criticize you, choose to stay childless, people will criticize you. Choose to drive a car or take public transportation, well you get my drift.
 
Thank you dshix for an excellent response. It make it all so much more clear. You offer this argument in clear well written language. I appreciate that. Thank you.

Catholic1954 I think readin the Catechism of the Catholic Church is a good idea. Thank you.

ellzeena yes, Jesus is the absolute reason for living the faith. I will keep my eyes on him. Thank you.

Lisa1967 I understand what you’re saying. I was both too. I certainly hope both can accept each other as Christian. I hope that is the case. I believe both to be Christian. Thank you.

**Sarcelle **you are so very right! It is a “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” existence we live in. It could almost be comical if it wasn’t so frustrating and sad. In the end, we have to laugh about it in unimportant situations. Thank you.
 
Thank you dshix for an excellent response. It make it all so much more clear. You offer this argument in clear well written language. I appreciate that. Thank you.

Catholic1954 I think readin the Catechism of the Catholic Church is a good idea. Thank you.

ellzeena yes, Jesus is the absolute reason for living the faith. I will keep my eyes on him. Thank you.

Lisa1967 I understand what you’re saying. I was both too. I certainly hope both can accept each other as Christian. I hope that is the case. I believe both to be Christian. Thank you.

**Sarcelle **you are so very right! It is a “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” existence we live in. It could almost be comical if it wasn’t so frustrating and sad. In the end, we have to laugh about it in unimportant situations. Thank you.
I’m very glad I was able to help. 🙂 I hope that you find all the rest of the answers you need and reach a position where you can feel very secure in the truth of our faith. 🙂
 
  1. objective truth does exist
  2. there are many spiritualiities (read about the historic conflicts between orders)
  3. Read the ancient church fathers
  4. read the lives of the Saints - they too dealt with the same things you mention
  5. read the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) or for starters Compendium (abreviated) CCC
  6. Read your bible: “to be ignorant of scripture is to be ignorant of Christ” ~ St. Jerome
  7. Preach the Gospel always and when necessary use words ~St. Francis (summary of his teaching)
  8. pray, pray, pray - Liturgy of the Hours, Rosary, Chaplet of Divine Mercy, Novena to the Holy Spirit, etc.
  9. transform yourself in Christ which will reduce your frustration in other people’s sins. Remember we must first deal with the log in our eye before we deal with the splinter in someone elses eye. In other words, confess being judgmental to your confessor.
    10 Confess frequently
  10. Never allow yourself to think you’re better that your peers. The least of us is the greatest.
  11. We all sin. Work on that and it should take away the distraction of other people’s sins around you. I recently attended a TLM just down the road. That was the best confession experience of my life. I struggle with certain sins as all of us do. The priest was amazing and provided me with spiritual aids to fight against the sins I struggle with. The mass on the other hand was a reminder to me why the current mass is in place and why many bishops don’t want it to be the norm. The people dressed and acted very zealous, which in and of itself is not bad. But there seemed to be those that were overly zealous. It is not mine to judge. I’ve learned to overlook faults having grown up in a messed up home where I was more of an adult than my own parents. But my experiences prepared me for what I deal with today in my own family now. It’s held my marriage together because I know where certain things lead even if my wife doesn’t. I ignore her faults, even though I occasionally whine about it (that’s my sin). Humility goes a long way, and boy do I have a lot to be humble about. Love your neighbor as yourself. We are all at different places in our spiritual life. But don’t think of yours as greater but rather at a different place as opposed to level. Avoid comparing yourself to others in a matter that only builds false pride. Satan is fighting us because we are God’s creatures. That’s why we are constantly under attack. We fail often. But that doesn’t mean we burn in hell. It means we are what the bible says, “a propensity towards evil” (summarized). Adam and Eve’s sin scarred us with original sin (probably should have been labeled "original woundedness of man instead of original sin, but it’s still correct since the Church knows best). Original sin is what causes us to have a propensity to do evil. We fight to do good and that is amazing when you look at how many people are actually trying to be good. The only good in us is the good God puts in me. That’s why we reduce ourselves and let God increase in us. The more we recognize our own faults the less we have time to focus on others. Let the priests do their jobs. But be willing to evangelize too. But do it with charity. This is such an ongoing learning lesson for me too. But I believe I’ve broken a barrier and am working on the next barrier that seems to keep me from being more like Christ.
Prayers for you. Pray for us too. I need them.
 
I think you have to accept that there are going to be imperfect people in both the Catholic and Protestant camps. These people are often going to engage in judging and condemning others.

I attend both services because my wife is Protestant although of course I go to Mass every week. I have learned a lot from the Protestants, although the Catholic faith works best for me.

I have noticed a great emphasis lately in Catholic sermons on love, mercy, forgiveness and things like that. Unfortunately, the lay people often are slow to embrace this in practice.

Realize that lay people, especially on forums, do not speak for the Catholic Church. You will see a lot of judging etc. by lay people in many religions. Just realize that these people are still growing and are missing the main points of the Gospel that is to love God and love your neighbor as yourself.

Personally, I think the “OSAS / reach out to others” – message is closer to the truth than the judgmental religious. That does not mean that “anything goes”; however, it does mean that our efforts in love and mercy should exceed any fault finding by many orders of magnitude.

Otherwise we are more likely to be driving people away from God than inviting them toward God.
 
Read up on the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and you will be better prepared to defend the faith and silence the critics.
Doesn’t seem to make a difference when there’s the whole latin vs new mass arguments, prochoice catholics, (:confused:), the priest is doing it wrong brigade and the whole general self destructive whining criticism that seems to be spouted wherever catholics get together on the internet. 🤷
 
The best decision I ever made was to stop caring about what others think. Life is just easier that way.
 
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