"Discussion groups" during homily

[NewsTheMan]

Long story short I stopped going to the evening Mass at my Parish because it was introducing all kinds of novelties to cater to the students (it’s a “student” Mass). I won’t go into that. However, I travelled on Sunday so I had to go to it instead of my morning Mass.

Anyway, during the homily the priest spoke for about 30seconds on the first reading, spoke for about a minute on not liking how the laity and clergy and separate and some “rigid” Catholics want there to be distinction, and then said that his homily will be a discussion group. So basically, he paired people up, gave 3 questions and said “discuss”. After 5 or so minutes of everybody talking he then asked questions and that was his homily.

2 questions, then.

1. I understand that a priest may ask questions during a homily and people may answer [even if personally I don’t find this appealing or good]. But are discussion groups allowed?
2. I opted out of the discussion groups and sat in my pew alone praying the Rosary in my head. Was a just being hard headed and arrogant? My priest even came up to me and questioned me about my actions and I just said that I’d prefer to pray silently. At the end he said something like, “I know some people and don’t like this kind of preaching but it’s fine to not do things that are correct sometimes if it encourages participation”. It made me feel a bit bad and in some sense I agree with him, but in another sense I disagree that the appropriate time for this kind of thing is at the Mass.

Anyway, after that the Mass went on as usual.

Thank you.

 

[Anathama_Sit]

Long story short I stopped going to the evening Mass at my Parish because it was introducing all kinds of novelties to cater to the students (it’s a “student” Mass). I won’t go into that. However, I travelled on Sunday so I had to go to it instead of my morning Mass.

Anyway, during the homily the priest spoke for about 30seconds on the first reading, spoke for about a minute on not liking how the laity and clergy and separate and some “rigid” Catholics want there to be distinction, and then said that his homily will be a discussion group. So basically, he paired people up, gave 3 questions and said “discuss”. After 5 or so minutes of everybody talking he then asked questions and that was his homily.

2 questions, then.

1. I understand that a priest may ask questions during a homily and people may answer [even if personally I don’t find this appealing or good]. But are discussion groups allowed?
2. I opted out of the discussion groups and sat in my pew alone praying the Rosary in my head. Was a just being hard headed and arrogant? My priest even came up to me and questioned me about my actions and I just said that I’d prefer to pray silently. At the end he said something like, “I know some people and don’t like this kind of preaching but it’s fine to not do things that are correct sometimes if it encourages participation”. It made me feel a bit bad and in some sense I agree with him, but in another sense I disagree that the appropriate time for this kind of thing is at the Mass.

Anyway, after that the Mass went on as usual.

Thank you.

Greetings NewTheMan,

I would not like the discussion groups in the homily. There is a place for that and it is outside of the Mass. Clearly this is not what GIRM or the Church envisioned for the homily.

God Bless.
Anathama Sit

 

[willofgods]

Normally a priest will have studied theology, scripture, etc., allowing him a greater understanding of the readings at Mass. This knowledge allows him to make a homily speech that is informed and in line with Church teachings. You say that this is at a student Mass? I am recently out of college and I can confidently say I rarely understand Scripture well enough to share my thoughts with others, without worrying that I may say something not Catholic. Unless all the students there are accomplished students of theology, it leaves too much room for misinformed interpretation of the Word.

On the other hand, your priest has a duty of keeping his flock, and the feeling of inclusion and that you contributed is important to young folks, possibly being the only reason the continue going to Mass weekly; however, youth groups serve this same purpose.

Finally, I can’t find the documentation to back this up, but I always thought that only a priest or deacon could say the homily.

 

[Anathama_Sit]

Finally, I can’t find the documentation to back this up, but I always thought that only a priest or deacon could say the homily.

Greetings Willofgods,

GIRM #66

The homily should ordinarily be given by the priest celebrant himself. He may entrust it to a concelebrating priest or ocassionally, according to circumstnaces, to the deacon, but never to a lay pesron. In particular cases and for a just cause, the homily may even be given by a Bishop or a priest who is present at the celebration but cannot concelebrat.

God Bless.
Anathama Sit

 

[DianaCC]

Funny how he decried the division between clergy and laity and then turned around and alienated you. It’s not a question of whether discussion groups are “allowed”. This guy doesn’t have a clue about his role as the priest to begin with, so the question is really beside the point. “Not [doing] things that are correct sometimes if it encourages participation” is like a father abandoning his family to encourage his children to take a more active role in family life.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

It sounds a bit loony. Obviously this only worked because the congregation was small. (were there more than 50 people there? more than 10?)

Did he sum up? Make any comments about the responses to the questions he asked? Doesn’t even sound like a good teach tool let alone homily!

He should give a normal homily, then start a discussion group with beer and chips after the evening Mass. It would probably be very popular with the students. And people who just needed to get to Mass wouldn’t have to put up with his ‘participation’ nonsense.

 

[judefan]

As always, if you have a problem with something your priest does, ask to speak with him about it. In Church teaching on liturgy, there are some allowances made for Masses with young children, but with older children or young adults, there should not be any tampering with the norms. We just started a monthly “youth group” Mass, but this consists of them doing the readings, assisting with music, being the altar servers, ushers, greeters, etc. In other words, instead of changing the Mass for them, we are trying to have them take more responsibility and to be an example for other youth. They are required to study the readings for that Mass and help select the music as well. Secular music not permitted. I can tell you they have been very enthusiastic about this, and all without deviating from any norms. The key with youth is not entertaining them, but involving them.

 

[willofgods]

Greetings Willofgods,

GIRM #66
…]
God Bless.
Anathama Sit

Thanks Anathama Sit I’ve been looking through the Bible, and the CCC in the last year and a half, and it’s helped me get a better grip on my faith. It might be time I start browsing the GIRM too. Can I ask you which website you use for the GIRM? Or do you have a hard copy?

For NewsTheMan, does the parish not have groups for discussion out of Mass? I.e., young adult discussion groups or the like? Sometimes only informing someone of a problem is not the best thing to solve a problem; the key is to offer a solution that leaves everyone happy (without breaking the rules either ). :twocents:

 

[promethius]

1. I opted out of the discussion groups and sat in my pew alone praying the Rosary in my head. Was a just being hard headed and arrogant? My priest even came up to me and questioned me about my actions and I just said that I’d prefer to pray silently. At the end he said something like, “I know some people and don’t like this kind of preaching but it’s fine to not do things that are correct sometimes if it encourages participation”. It made me feel a bit bad and in some sense I agree with him, but in another sense I disagree that the appropriate time for this kind of thing is at the Mass.

My response would have been “You are the father and I am the child. My participation is to learn the values of the church from the father… not to teach him and certainly not to teach others with my very limited understanding.”

 

[EasterJoy]

I have seen a priest do something a sort of similar to this, but it has always been a sort of a way to get people to attend to the readings. He gives about 2 minutes for discussion, takes a few minutes as a way to poll where the assembly is on the topic, and then he uses that as a starting point for the homily. (He never fails to tease the assembly about how many of them can’t have so much as a 2 minute discussion on the readings without whipping out the missalette to find out what the readings said!)

IOW, in his case it isn’t intended as a lazy way to avoid preparing a homily. It is more a way to keep the assembly from being lazy about how they listen. The first few minutes identify “this is how you took the readings…and gee, oops, some of you weren’t taking in anything at all!” and then he gives the homily and explains the difference (if any) between how the readings could be taken and what the Church actually teaches that they mean.

I’m not much for it, but since he gives the homily and doesn’t “abdicate the chair”, so to speak, I’ve not objected to it in the cases I’ve seen. Unfortunately, that is because he always demonstrates that a plurality if not a majority didn’t know what the readings were in the first place. It’s a remedial sort of homily, but how can you explain readings that too few actively listen to in the first place?

As for “it’s fine to not do things that are correct sometimes if it encourages participation”, you might ask if he could think of a way to encourage participation AND be correct, both at the same time? “You’ve given some awful homilies, Father, but I think you’re being too hard on yourself!!”

(OK, maybe not. Well, maybe if you were very close friends, and you *know *he would know you were pulling his leg. )

 

[John_Lilburne]

Long story short I stopped going to the evening Mass at my Parish because it was introducing all kinds of novelties to cater to the students (it’s a “student” Mass). I won’t go into that. However, I travelled on Sunday so I had to go to it instead of my morning Mass.

Anyway, during the homily the priest spoke for about 30seconds on the first reading, spoke for about a minute on not liking how the laity and clergy and separate and some “rigid” Catholics want there to be distinction, and then said that his homily will be a discussion group. So basically, he paired people up, gave 3 questions and said “discuss”. After 5 or so minutes of everybody talking he then asked questions and that was his homily.

2 questions, then.

1. I understand that a priest may ask questions during a homily and people may answer [even if personally I don’t find this appealing or good]. But are discussion groups allowed?
2. I opted out of the discussion groups and sat in my pew alone praying the Rosary in my head. Was a just being hard headed and arrogant? My priest even came up to me and questioned me about my actions and I just said that I’d prefer to pray silently. At the end he said something like, “I know some people and don’t like this kind of preaching but it’s fine to not do things that are correct sometimes if it encourages participation”. It made me feel a bit bad and in some sense I agree with him, but in another sense I disagree that the appropriate time for this kind of thing is at the Mass.

Anyway, after that the Mass went on as usual.

Thank you.

My understanding is that discussion groups are not permitted during the Mass.

From the Directory for Masses With Children:
“48. The homily explaining the word of God should be given great prominence in all Masses with children. Sometimes the homily intended for children should become a dialogue with them, unless it is preferred that they should listen in silence.”

My understanding of “dialogue with them” is that the person giving the homily remains in the discussion.

 

[Anathama_Sit]

Thanks Anathama Sit I’ve been looking through the Bible, and the CCC in the last year and a half, and it’s helped me get a better grip on my faith. It might be time I start browsing the GIRM too. Can I ask you which website you use for the GIRM? Or do you have a hard copy?

For NewsTheMan, does the parish not have groups for discussion out of Mass? I.e., young adult discussion groups or the like? Sometimes only informing someone of a problem is not the best thing to solve a problem; the key is to offer a solution that leaves everyone happy (without breaking the rules either ). :twocents:

Greetings Willofgods,

I have a hard copy of it.

The GIRM is indeed a helpful document to learn.

Here’s the website that I use if I need to find it.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20030317_ordinamento-messale_en.html

God Bless.
Anathama Sit

 

[thomas_jd]

My understanding is that discussion groups are not permitted during the Mass.

From the Directory for Masses With Children:
“48. The homily explaining the word of God should be given great prominence in all Masses with children. Sometimes the homily intended for children should become a dialogue with them, unless it is preferred that they should listen in silence.”

My understanding of “dialogue with them” is that the person giving the homily remains in the discussion.

John, It appears to me that your conclusion is the opposite of your citation. If it is permitted during a childrens mass, it doesn’t make sense to prohibit it any other mass.
I would have never thought that the dialogue was allowed at any mass!
To be a dialouge the priest would continue to interact with the group.

 

[anruari]

I can certainly understand this.

Some time ago I attended a Sunday Mass held for a particular Ethnic group in my local parish Church. (ministering to all those of that ethnic group in a wide radius).
The priest was young. Communion was distributed under both species. I recieve the Holy Blood, to realise that it was NOT WINE!

In the same parish, the normal priest is an old man. from habit he frequently makes the announcements immediately between the Gospel and the Homily. He also frequently permits lay people to make announcements or appeals for charities at this time instead of giving a homily.

All these things constitute abuses. However there are varying degrees of seriousness. One of these invalidated the mass, others merely detract from the natural flow of the worship.

On the event of the most serious - the use of a substance other than approved wine as a species for the consecration I approached the priest and as non confrontationally as possible asked what had been used, and suggested that he re-check check the GRIM for instruction on appropriate wine sources. He thought it was OK as he’d bought the wine from a church supply company. (In the UK all church supply companies supply many Christian denominations).

On the other events, the validity of the mass has not been compromised, and while I field let down that our priest failed to provide a sermon - especially on the week when the new translation was introduced in the UK - the validity of the mass was not infringed. It is not my place to rebuke a man in his 70’s for a habit he was probably taught by some of his now long dead superiors. Especially as he is a priest, and I am not.

In the O.P’s case I would suggest that the style of seminar which the priest in question chose to use at a mass specifically targeted to a particular group of his flock was probably (and admited by the priest) to be in breach of the norms, however it is a teaching style that many students are familiar with, and does not invalidate the mass, therefore the seriousness of it is tiny compared to some liturgical abuses I have seen.

 

[paperwight66]

I can certainly understand this.

Some time ago I attended a Sunday Mass held for a particular Ethnic group in my local parish Church. (ministering to all those of that ethnic group in a wide radius).
The priest was young. Communion was distributed under both species. I recieve the Holy Blood, to realise that it was NOT WINE!

.

How do you mean? Do you mean that it was not RED wine?

Red wine isn’t compulsory for the Mass to be valid. White wine is used by many parishes.

I am quite sure that ‘altar wine’ bought from one of the Ecclesiastical Supplies companies would be suitable. Unless the parish had recently changed their supplier, in my experience as a sacristan parishes have a standing order and would not be sent a non-Catholic communion wine as they would know what the parish usually had and wouldn’t want to lose their custom.
Even if it came in plastic containers, as opposed to wine bottles, altar wine is clearly labelled as such.

 

[Elizabeth502]

What the OP describes has happened to me twice in the last year. And in both occasions it was a complete and utter failure. Mostly, people joked and socialized with each other; others acted uncomfortable; others were confused; others were angry because very little guidance was given as to what should be discussed! Did not work, whatever the supposed goal was. Mass is not the format of a classroom, which is the main reason people were thrown off.