Discussion: Throne of Grace

[CoboltBlue]

I have a question that has me very worried. It about Hebrews 4:16 (I will quote from Amplified bible) " Let us the fearlessly and confidently and boldly draw near to the throne of grace (the throne of God’s unmerited favor to us sinners),that we may receive mercy [for our failures] and find grace to help in good time for every need [appropriate help and well-times help, coming just when we need it].
As a Christian I know that without Jesus death on the Cross and the shedding of his blood for our sins I (we) would have no way to be saved for eternity. And that grace comes from the unmeritted favor of God by way of his Son going to the cross for us.
And that he is so gracious that his mercy renews each day to forgive us our sins.
Now my question lies with a Prayer card with Mary on the front of it and on the back it refers to her as being the throne of grace.
How could this possible be?

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Hi Cobalt Blue, welcome to the forums,

Because God, the source of all grace, reigned and reigns in Mary as upon a throne.

God bless,
VC

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I have a question that has me very worried. It about Hebrews 4:16 (I will quote from Amplified bible) " Let us the fearlessly and confidently and boldly draw near to the throne of grace (the throne of God’s unmerited favor to us sinners),that we may receive mercy [for our failures] and find grace to help in good time for every need [appropriate help and well-times help, coming just when we need it].
As a Christian I know that without Jesus death on the Cross and the shedding of his blood for our sins I (we) would have no way to be saved for eternity. And that grace comes from the unmeritted favor of God by way of his Son going to the cross for us.
And that he is so gracious that his mercy renews each day to forgive us our sins.
Now my question lies with a Prayer card with Mary on the front of it and on the back it refers to her as being the throne of grace.
How could this possible be?

The prayer card (are you quoting from the Litany of Loreto ?) is doing what the NT often does - applying titles which belong properly to God, to men as well.​

Jesus Christ is:

• “The Light of the world” - Christians (such as the Apostles) are “lights in the world”
• “Son of God” - Christians are adopted “as sons”; they are “beloved children”
• Sent - so were John the Baptist, & the “apostles” (= the “sent ones”).
• Teacher - there are teachers in the Church
  And so it goes on.

Whether it is appropriate to call the BVM the throne of grace, is less obviously right. Some Divine titles are incommunicable, others are not. Jesus is the Throne of Grace because it is in Him that God is Present among His People; the NT sense relies for its effectiveness on familiarity with the OT imagery of the Ark & its cherubim. I think it is legitimate enough to apply the title to the BVM, provided she is not made a rival or competitor to Christ the Lord. Only God can be trusted to appear to do that - it’s called creation

 

[CoboltBlue]

The prayer card (are you quoting from the Litany of Loreto ?) is doing what the NT often does - applying titles which belong properly to God, to men as well.​

Jesus Christ is:

• “The Light of the world” - Christians (such as the Apostles) are “lights in the world”
• “Son of God” - Christians are adopted “as sons”; they are “beloved children”
• Sent - so were John the Baptist, & the “apostles” (= the “sent ones”).
• Teacher - there are teachers in the Church
  And so it goes on. These points I will agree with you on. BUT there is no way that Mary should be given this kind of acknowledgement. Mary, the mother of Jesus, died. She sleeps in a place called Paradise in the thrid heaven waiting like all the other saints born again in Jesus who are asleep and awaiting his second coming. Taking something like the throne of grace from God and giving it to Mary or a dead person is very wrong. Mary can not and does not give us any kind of grace or mercy like this prayer card indicates. She is not apart of the Holy Trinity. It is only by God’s grace (HIS lone) that we are saved if we have accepted Jesus into our hearts.

Whether it is appropriate to call the BVM the throne of grace, is less obviously right. Some Divine titles are incommunicable, others are not. Jesus is the Throne of Grace (not at the present because he has not come back in full power as our King–this is God and God alone who bears this title) because it is in Him that God is Present among His People; the NT sense relies for its effectiveness on familiarity with the OT imagery of the Ark & its cherubim. I think it is legitimate enough to apply the title to the BVM, provided she is not made a rival or competitor to Christ the Lord. Only God can be trusted to appear to do that - it’s called creation

 

[ralphinal]

I am a little confused. What is the third heaven?

Anyway,
Gottle is correct. Some titles for God are applied others and some cannot be. Another example is that of “Rock.” The Father is said to be the Rock, Jesus is said to be the Rock, and Peter is said to be the Rock. All are correct but all are different theologically.

The Ark analogy is a great one. It was the Throne of Grace. The BVM is the Ark of the New Covenant. She is also a Throne of Grace only in that she carried Jesus. Catholics hold that she has no special place or role apart from being the Mother of Christ. It is through her role as Christ’s mother that she is allowed by God to intercede for us on earth

 

[Verbum_Caro]

She is also a Throne of Grace only in that she carried Jesus. Catholics hold that she has no special place or role apart from being the Mother of Christ. It is through her role as Christ’s mother that she is allowed by God to intercede for us on earth

Ralphinal,

Its just my opinion, of course, and I may be misreading you, but I feel that you may be inadvertently downplaying the virtues of our blessed mother.

Mary isn’t called the Throne of Grace simply because she carried Christ. She was preeminent in grace before she carried Christ, and after.

And to say that she has no special role apart from being the Mother of Christ, I think, is a distinction without a difference. All of us have no special role to play apart from our relationship with Christ. But given those who have a relationship with Christ, Mary is the holiest. She is the perfect disciple and the greatest saint. So, unless you say that Saint So-and-So has no special role apart from being given grace by God, it doesn’t seem like we ought to say that Mary has no special role apart from being the mother of Christ.

In addition, when you say that it is through Mary’s role as mother that God allows her to intercede for us . . . what about the other saints who intercede for us? It isn’t a function of Mary’s maternity that allows her to intercede (since this is common for all the saints) but it is due to her maternity (and her merits) that her intercession is preeminent among the saints.

What are your thoughts?

VC

 

[ralphinal]

Ralphinal,

Its just my opinion, of course, and I may be misreading you, but I feel that you may be inadvertently downplaying the virtues of our blessed mother.

Yes and no. I am downplaying her as a possible pseudo-Christ. I was not trying to downplay her as an aid to salvation.

Mary isn’t called the Throne of Grace simply because she carried Christ. She was preeminent in grace before she carried Christ, and after.

Had she never carried him, she would not be worthy of hyper-dulia. She is the greatest example of the Christian life AND she was the Theotokos.

And to say that she has no special role apart from being the Mother of Christ, I think, is a distinction without a difference. All of us have no special role to play apart from our relationship with Christ. But given those who have a relationship with Christ, Mary is the holiest. She is the perfect disciple and the greatest saint. So, unless you say that Saint So-and-So has no special role apart from being given grace by God, it doesn’t seem like we ought to say that Mary has no special role apart from being the mother of Christ.

I should have been more clear. Her role is special because she was the Mother of Christ. NO one else can claim such an honor. She therefore is pre-eminant among all saints. It is because of that role that she was Immaculately Conceived and Assumed into heaven. It is because of that role that she has a place close to God’s heart.

In addition, when you say that it is through Mary’s role as mother that God allows her to intercede for us . . . what about the other saints who intercede for us? It isn’t a function of Mary’s maternity that allows her to intercede (since this is common for all the saints) but it is due to her maternity (and her merits) that her intercession is preeminent among the saints.

What are your thoughts?

VC

I agree.

 

[Ruthie]

Dear Cobolt,

We are coming from different beliefs here. We believe that those who die are immediately judged by Jesus, and their souls go to Heaven or Hell. We call this the Particular Judgment. (We will get our glorified bodies at the second coming.)

We base this on Rev 5:8, Mk 9;4, Lk 23:43, Heb 12:1, Lk 16:19-30, and Rev 20:4, among other things.

Mary and the Saints in Heaven are not dead, but able to intercede for us with prayer, just like our friends on earth.

Hope this helps your understanding.

Ruthie

 

[CoboltBlue]

Hi Cobalt Blue, welcome to the forums,

Because God, the source of all grace, reigned and reigns in Mary as upon a throne.

God bless,
VC

I am sorry but I do not understand what you are saying here.
Vines:Metaphorically of believers, Rom. 5:17, where" shall reign in life’ indicated the activity of life in fellowhip with Christ in His sovereign power, reaching its fulness hereafter;
Vines: Throne: a seat of authority, is used of the throne of God, Heb. 4:16, “the throne of grace,” i.e., from which grace proceeds.
Vines: Grace —espically with reference to the Divine favour or grace, e.g., Acts 14:26; in this respect there is stess on its freeshness and universality, its spontaneous character, as in the case of God’s redemptive mercy, and the pleasure of joy He designs for the recipient; thus it is set in contrast with debt, Ro. 4:4,16.
You (or rather propably the church) are taking way too many liberities with throwing all of these terms together. And thus the church ends up calling her the throne of grace/ ! Not appropriate. She did not give the grace that sinners receive from God’s Son dieing on the cross for us. Without God’s grace we would still be unforgiven sinners and doomed to hell. SIZE]

 

[CoboltBlue]

Dear Cobolt,

We are coming from different beliefs here. We believe that those who die are immediately judged by Jesus, and their souls go to Heaven or Hell. We call this the Particular Judgment. (We will get our glorified bodies at the second coming.)

We base this on Rev 5:8, Mk 9;4, Lk 23:43, Heb 12:1, Lk 16:19-30, and Rev 20:4, among other things.

Mary and the Saints in Heaven are not dead, but able to intercede for us with prayer, just like our friends on earth.

Hope this helps your understanding.

Ruthie

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Dead: James 2:26 “For as the human body apart from the spirit is lifeless…”
Asleep: Actc 13:36, Metaphorical uf of the word sleep is appropriate, because of the similarity in appearance between a sleeping body and a dead body. W.E. Vines
Dan. 12:2 , where the physically dead are described as 'them that sleep".
Ecc. 12:7 , and since that state in which the believer, absent from the body, is at home with the Lord.
Vines continues: sleep–where applied to the departed Christians, is not intended to convey the idea that the spirit is unconscious.
It is in a restful state.​

Those who are in this ‘sleep’ or ‘death’ state are at rest and not up running all around and answering prayers. God does not want us trying to talk with them while they are in this state.
So your not talking to the Mary of the Bible if you pray to her…you are talking to the fallen spirits here on earth…your prayers a hallow. They don’t reach heaven.

 

[CoboltBlue]

Ralphinal,

Its just my opinion, of course, and I may be misreading you, but I feel that you may be inadvertently downplaying the virtues of our blessed mother.

Mary isn’t called the Throne of Grace simply because she carried Christ. She was preeminent in grace before she carried Christ, and after.

And to say that she has no special role apart from being the Mother of Christ, I think, is a distinction without a difference. All of us have no special role to play apart from our relationship with Christ. But given those who have a relationship with Christ, Mary is the holiest. She is the perfect disciple and the greatest saint. So, unless you say that Saint So-and-So has no special role apart from being given grace by God, it doesn’t seem like we ought to say that Mary has no special role apart from being the mother of Christ.

In addition, when you say that it is through Mary’s role as mother that God allows her to intercede for us . . . what about the other saints who intercede for us? It isn’t a function of Mary’s maternity that allows her to intercede (since this is common for all the saints) but it is due to her maternity (and her merits) that her intercession is preeminent among the saints.

What are your thoughts?

VC

God did not give Mary the role of intercessory for prayer. Just because she is the Mother of Jesus. That was her role. To carry and birth Jesus. Northing more. The only one who interceeds for us is the living Jesus who stands at the right hand of God {Romans 8:34 " Who is there to condemn [us]? Will Christ Jesus (the Messiah), Wod died, or rahter Who was raised from the dead; Who is at the right hand of God actually pleading as He interceeds for us?"
WHY is he pleading on our behalf? Because satan is right there bring charges against our prayers and if we are Born Again, buried, died and raised in Christ then are prayers are covered by the blood of Jesus. All he has to say to God is that our prayers are under his blood. And God hears our prayers.
1 John 2:1 " …But if anyone should sin, we have an Advocate (One Who will intercede for us) with the Father—[it is] Jesus Christ [the all] righteous [upright, just, Who conforms to the Father’s will in every purpose, thought, and action]."
JESUS IS THE ONE WHO DIED FOR OUR SINS.
WHY WOULD YOU ALLOW THE CHURCH TO TELL YOU THEY GAVE MARY THE JOB OF INTERCESSOR==IT WAS NOT HER BLOOD SPILLED, SHE DID NOT HANG ON THE CROSS AND GIVE HER LIFE. HER SON DID!
Her blood can not cover our sins. And she is asleep in Christ. She is not doing all the made up things the church has given her to do and proclaimed she does. No where in God’s word does it talk about Mary still being alive, hearing prayers, saving anyone from hell, or being the throne of grace!
This is the Roman Catholic church that has taken scripture and added their ‘traditions’ and ‘dogmas’ to the word of God and thus has changed it to fit their needs. Again, Deut. 4, God tells us not to add to or take away from his word.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Hi CoboltBlue,

She did not give the grace that sinners receive from God’s Son dieing on the cross for us. Without God’s grace we would still be unforgiven sinners and doomed to hell.

You are right, of course. God is the author and source of all grace. The title “Throne of Grace” as applied to Mary is to indicate that she, among the saints, was the most full of grace – that God’s kingdom and His presence was enthroned in her to a preeminent degree, referencing both her actual maternity (i.e. an actual “throne” for Christ), her discipleship, and her fullness of grace.

But the title “throne of grace” is somewhat immaterial – the truths that it represents are the most important. In that light, most of the titles ascribed to Mary are immaterial – except for “Mother of God” which must be adhered to most vigorously!

God did not give Mary the role of intercessory for prayer. Just because she is the Mother of Jesus. That was her role. To carry and birth Jesus. Northing more.

Mother of God, remember! As to intercessory prayer – certainly she performed that task at the wedding feast of Cana, interceding with her Son on the behalf of others, certainly she would continue to do so.

And as far as her role being “nothing more” than carrying and giving birth to Jesus. . . if *we *don’t think of *our own mothers *this way (at least I hope we think of our mothers as more than just “carrying and giving birth” to us), then why would we expect Our Lord to think so little of His mother?

VC

 

[ralphinal]

God did not give Mary the role of intercessory for prayer. Just because she is the Mother of Jesus. That was her role. To carry and birth Jesus. Northing more. The only one who interceeds for us is the living Jesus who stands at the right hand of God {Romans 8:34 " Who is there to condemn [us]? Will Christ Jesus (the Messiah), Wod died, or rahter Who was raised from the dead; Who is at the right hand of God actually pleading as He interceeds for us?"
WHY is he pleading on our behalf? Because satan is right there bring charges against our prayers and if we are Born Again, buried, died and raised in Christ then are prayers are covered by the blood of Jesus. All he has to say to God is that our prayers are under his blood. And God hears our prayers.
1 John 2:1 " …But if anyone should sin, we have an Advocate (One Who will intercede for us) with the Father—[it is] Jesus Christ [the all] righteous [upright, just, Who conforms to the Father’s will in every purpose, thought, and action]."
JESUS IS THE ONE WHO DIED FOR OUR SINS.
WHY WOULD YOU ALLOW THE CHURCH TO TELL YOU THEY GAVE MARY THE JOB OF INTERCESSOR==IT WAS NOT HER BLOOD SPILLED, SHE DID NOT HANG ON THE CROSS AND GIVE HER LIFE. HER SON DID!
Her blood can not cover our sins. And she is asleep in Christ. She is not doing all the made up things the church has given her to do and proclaimed she does. No where in God’s word does it talk about Mary still being alive, hearing prayers, saving anyone from hell, or being the throne of grace!
This is the Roman Catholic church that has taken scripture and added their ‘traditions’ and ‘dogmas’ to the word of God and thus has changed it to fit their needs. Again, Deut. 4, God tells us not to add to or take away from his word.

At any point in time have you asked someone to pray for you? I would think so. Further, if someone asked you to pray for them, do you say “No. Just talk to Jesus. I will not interceed for you.”

As for the saints being aware, look at the transfiguration of Jesus and the parable of Lazerus and the Rich Man. Both had people who had died but were aware and could communicate with others.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Ralph,

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my post and to restate things the way you did. I agree with you that everything is premised upon Mary’s maternity of Christ.

VC

 

[ralphinal]

Ralph,

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my post and to restate things the way you did. I agree with you that everything is premised upon Mary’s maternity of Christ.

VC

Your very welcome. It is somewhat funny to me that some non-Catholics think that we replace Jesus with Mary. The truth is, as Father Grochelle says, like all Jewish mothers, Mary only wants us to know about her wonderful son.