Discussion with protestant friend

[bscastro]

I had a friendly chat with a protestant friend and we got to talking about being saved. Here are a couple highlights, and then a question:

1. We both agreed that we need God to save us. We can’t “earn” our way to heaven.
2. We both agreed that God the Holy Spirit converts men (and women).
3. We also agreed (surprisingly) that after we have converted, we weren’t finished, there was work to do as Christians.
4. Then I said something to the effect of, “And we have accept God’s grace” (The order of point 3 & 4 might have been inverted, but that’s inconsequential to the question)

This is where we broke off in our agreement…she said, “Well, that’s kind of doing something…we can’t do anything! God chooses us.”

Then she went on to say we need to respond to God’s choosing us by evangelizing, etc. (This is where she said #3 I believe).

In any case, are we saying the same thing, or is this kind of the “Faith and works” debate? The way she worded things kind of through me off - e.g. She never said we are saved by faith alone.

I get a little confused and perhaps intimidated, but I don’t think my friend and I are exactly on the same page. For her, it’s an almost predestination type of thing while I’m pretty sure we as Catholics do not believe that. Again, she didn’t use the words predestination, so I guess that’s where she kind of confused me.

Any help would be appreciated. BTW, if it helps, she identifies her self as a Calvinist as well as a Presbyterian.

She is a dear friend, so our conversations on this are always friendly, but she’s been a protestant longer than I’ve been a “practicing” Catholic, so she is more knowledgeable about what she believes than I am about what I believe, if that makes sense.

Thank you for your help!

Yours in Christ,
Bryan

 

[Neildown]

As far as predestination, we are, but we aren’t, as far as I’ve worked out. God has a plan set for us in some manner, but our free will works within that premise. Thus, we always follow God’s set plan but it is still through our own will. So one cannot really say we have COMPLETE freedom to choose what happens in the world (we only have complete control over what we as individuals can do - thus free will), nor are we COMPLETELY forced to walk a narrow line via predestination.

An example I like to use is going down a river in a boat. We are destined to go from point A to point B when the river is flowing, but we can choose how we get to the end. You can slow down or speed up a bit, go left or right, or even under, but you’re still going to end up at the end of the river. Regardless of your actions, everything is still within the confines of God’s plan.

Since we are but a creation of God, and our world is largely limited to physicality, its not like we can breach God’s will or plan, but that doesn’t necessitate the idea that He actually “controls” us in any individual way either. Another example might be a fish in the ocean. A fish is confined by the ocean (like we are by physical and spiritual limits) but every aspect of its life is not controlled by that. It can choose to eat, hide, or swim around whatever way it wants (that would be within the confines of instinct though, since fish don’t have free will, but I think the gist is obvious enough.)

 

[cessnawag]

We are given the gift of free will, we can choose to obey god or not too. God GIVES us the choice of salvation or not. We must choose. The same is true for any gift, you can say yes or no.

 

[Erich]

Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us, “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” But this does not mean that you don’t have to do anything to be saved other than accepting Christ as your savior. You might want to familiarize yourself with catholic.com/tracts/assurance-of-salvation, which says (among other things):
[T]his is not even how things work in everyday life. If another person gives us something as a grace—as a gift—and even if we did nothing to deserve it (though frequently gifts are given based on our having pleased the one bestowing the gift), it in no way follows that our actions are irrelevant to whether or not we keep the gift. We can lose it in all kinds of ways. We can misplace it, destroy it, give it to someone else, take it back to the store. We may even forfeit something we were given by later displeasing the one who gave it—as when a person has been appointed to a special position but is later stripped of that position on account of mismanagement.

The argument fares no better when one turns to Scripture, for one finds that Adam and Eve, who received God’s grace in a manner just as unmerited as anyone today, most definitely did demerit it—and lost grace not only for themselves but for us as well (cf. also Rom. 11:17-24). While the idea that what is received without merit cannot be lost by demerit may have a kind of poetic charm for some, it does not stand up when compared with the way things really work—either in the everyday world or in the Bible.

Regarding the issue of whether Christians have an “absolute” assurance of salvation, regardless of their actions, consider this warning Paul gave: “See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off” (Rom. 11:22; see also Heb. 10:26–29, 2 Pet. 2:20–21).

Yes, salvation is a gift of God, but we have to do our part… we have to cooperate with God’s grace. We all will be judged by God according to our deeds. There is no distinction between the “saved” and the “unsaved.” See also scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html (particularly the first section).

 

[Erich]

Grace alone saves us, but it is faith and works that keeps us there. In John 15:1-6, Jesus is the vine, Christians are the branches. How did the branch become a branch…by something it did? No. Solely by the action of the vine. How does the branch abide in the vine? By producing fruit. Does it produce fruit all by itself? Absolutely not! But, it cooperates in the process with the nourishment (grace) given to it by the vine. And, if it stops cooperating with the grace received from the vine, and doesn’t produce fruit (good works), then it is cut off from the vine (salvation is lost). Grace alone saves, but faith and works are both necessary to abide in that salvation.

What else does the Bible say about the necessity of good works to salvation? Rom 2:6-7, “For He will render to every man according to his WORKS; to those who by patience in well-doing [WORKS] seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give ETERNAL LIFE.” James 2:14, 17: “What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him…So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.” James 2:24, “You see that a man is justified by WORKS and not by faith alone.” 1 Tim 5:8, “If any one does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his own family, he has disowned the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.” Matt 25:31-46, the sheep, the ones who inherit the kingdom, fed the hungry, gave drink to the thirsty, visited the sick and imprisoned, and clothed the naked. The ones who go away into eternal punishment did none of these things. Matt 25:14-30, the Parable of the Talents. Those who did something with what the Master gave them - those who “added to” what the Master gave them - “enter into the joy” of their Master. The one servant who relied solely on the Master, and who provided no return on what the Master had given him, is cast into the outer darkness.

 

[Erich]

The Bible states in James 2:26 that you can have faith without works, but it states that such faith is dead (“For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.”) If you have the body (faith), but you do not have the spirit (works), does that mean you don’t have a body? No, it means you have a dead body. This verse says that both body and spirit are necessary for life - physical life. Then it draws an analogy - faith is analogous to the body, works are analogous to the spirit. So, for the analogy to hold, both faith and works are necessary for life - spiritual life. Does this verse say that the body without the spirit really isn’t a body? No It says the body without the spirit is dead. So, again, for the analogy to hold, is faith without works not really faith? No It is still faith, but it is dead faith.

All the bodies down at the morgue are still bodies - they just happen to be dead. Faith, without works, is still faith, but it is dead faith - it cannot save you. So, Sola Fide, faith alone - without works - cannot save you. Sola Fide - faith alone - is dead faith. Faith without works is not the equivalent of not having faith - it is the equivalent of having dead faith. Remember the story of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:25-37)? The priest and the Levite – who had faith – passed by on the other side (i.e. they did not have works). The Samaritan, on the other hand, did not pass by. Jesus tells us, “Go and do likewise.”

 

[Erich]

Certainly, Christ did die on the cross once for all and has entered into the holy place in heaven to appear before God on our behalf. Christ has abundantly provided for our salvation, but that does not mean that there is no process by which this is applied to us as individuals. Obviously, there is, or we would have been saved and justified from all eternity, with no need to repent or have faith or anything else. We would have been born “saved,” with no need to be born again. Since we were not, since it is necessary for those who hear the gospel to repent and embrace it, there is a time at which we come to be reconciled to God. And if so, then we, like Adam and Eve, can become unreconciled with God and, like the prodigal son, need to come back and be reconciled again with God, after having left his family.

 

[steve_b]

[snip]

1. Then I said something to the effect of, “And we have accept God’s grace” (The order of point 3 & 4 might have been inverted, but that’s inconsequential to the question)

This is where we broke off in our agreement…she said, “Well, that’s kind of doing something…we can’t do anything! God chooses us.”

Of course God chooses us. He chooses us 1st, before we choose Him. As Paul wrote, God desires all of us to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth 1 Tim 2:4] but He forces no one.
b:

Then she went on to say we need to respond to God’s choosing us by evangelizing, etc. (This is where she said #3 I believe).

seems she’s already contradicted herself, but maybe she’s not expressing herself well.
b:

In any case, are we saying the same thing, or is this kind of the “Faith and works” debate? The way she worded things kind of through me off - e.g. She never said we are saved by faith alone.

I get a little confused and perhaps intimidated, but I don’t think my friend and I are exactly on the same page. For her, it’s an almost predestination type of thing while I’m pretty sure we as Catholics do not believe that.

Predestination is scriptural. Double predestination is not. Double predestination is the belief, God predestines people to hell. That view is condemned by the Church
b:

Again, she didn’t use the words predestination, so I guess that’s where she kind of confused me.

Any help would be appreciated. BTW, if it helps, she identifies her self as a Calvinist as well as a Presbyterian.

She is a dear friend, so our conversations on this are always friendly, but she’s been a protestant longer than I’ve been a “practicing” Catholic, so she is more knowledgeable about what she believes than I am about what I believe, if that makes sense.

Thank you for your help!

Yours in Christ,
Bryan

Here’s an article that might help you and your friend find common ground. Jimmy Akin was a Calvinist and is now @ Catholic Answers.
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/TULIP.htm