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GladCatholic
Guest
I was asked to start a new thread, prompted by the following post:
Disenchanted Latin Rite contemplating Eastern Catholic Church
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Catholig
Guest
GladCatholic,
I’m not eastern rite, but if I were in your shoes I would attend an eastern rite parish. The only thing is I personally wouldn’t switch rites.
Catholig
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GladCatholic
Guest
I went to the Divine Liturgy (in English) at the Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception in Philly today. This, after speaking to my priest last night who feels my frustration is with the Roman rite liturgy as opposed to anything doctrinal, although when so frustrated one’s mind can often go round and round and expand into the area of doctrine where it might not do so when less distressed. He said point blank he thought I’d be very happy in one of the Eastern Catholic churches (as opposed to researching and considering Eastern Orthodox).
I had researched the Divine Liturgy and the differences (the Cathedral is a Byzantine Ukrainian liturgy) and had no trouble following (like I said, it was English). The Cathedral is stunning, and I see similarities in the DL with the Tridentine Mass in the Roman rite. However, I should’ve probably attended the liturgy in Ukrainian. I guess being unfamiliar with the Divine Liturgy, I had to have my attention diverted by reading along, making sure I was in the right place, it was a bit awkward because in that huge Cathedral were only about 25 people and the cantor, and I think it would take several more times of attending as well as becoming much better acquainted with the DL.
I wish I could say this is where I want to be, but I can’t. I can say I am sad over the Mass in my Diocese, and even in other Dioceses where I have attended Mass. I was hoping this would be a very good fit (DL) right off the bat, but it isn’t–although it was only my first time.
GladCatholic
I had researched the Divine Liturgy and the differences (the Cathedral is a Byzantine Ukrainian liturgy) and had no trouble following (like I said, it was English). The Cathedral is stunning, and I see similarities in the DL with the Tridentine Mass in the Roman rite. However, I should’ve probably attended the liturgy in Ukrainian. I guess being unfamiliar with the Divine Liturgy, I had to have my attention diverted by reading along, making sure I was in the right place, it was a bit awkward because in that huge Cathedral were only about 25 people and the cantor, and I think it would take several more times of attending as well as becoming much better acquainted with the DL.
I wish I could say this is where I want to be, but I can’t. I can say I am sad over the Mass in my Diocese, and even in other Dioceses where I have attended Mass. I was hoping this would be a very good fit (DL) right off the bat, but it isn’t–although it was only my first time.
GladCatholic
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wannabee
Guest
Sitting here with my mouth wide open after that last comment from Catholig.
GladCatholic I really can’t understand where he got the impression that you were thinking of petitioning for a change of canonical enrolment.
There is absolutely nothing to prevent you visiting an Eastern Catholic Church - you are as Catholic as they/we are.
You may receive all the sacraments there with the exception of Holy Orders ] so that’s no worry.
Take your time - go and visit see if you like it - some do not.
Don’t worry about trying to do ‘things’ our way at the moment - cross yourself in the Latin left to right - no one will point and laugh.
When you go to Communion remember for you as a latin the Pre-Comunion fast is 1 hour ] just try and remember not to kneel , keep your arms crossed and tilt your head back a bit and open your mouth - the priest does the rest ----- oh and do not say anything to him after you have received as you walk away
- we don’t.
Go and be prepared to be overwhelmed by bells and smells and the chant.
Now find out when DL is - go and enjoy and tell us afterwards how you got on
GladCatholic I really can’t understand where he got the impression that you were thinking of petitioning for a change of canonical enrolment.
There is absolutely nothing to prevent you visiting an Eastern Catholic Church - you are as Catholic as they/we are.
You may receive all the sacraments there with the exception of Holy Orders ] so that’s no worry.
Take your time - go and visit see if you like it - some do not.
Don’t worry about trying to do ‘things’ our way at the moment - cross yourself in the Latin left to right - no one will point and laugh.
When you go to Communion remember for you as a latin the Pre-Comunion fast is 1 hour ] just try and remember not to kneel , keep your arms crossed and tilt your head back a bit and open your mouth - the priest does the rest ----- oh and do not say anything to him after you have received as you walk away
- we don’t.Go and be prepared to be overwhelmed by bells and smells and the chant.
Now find out when DL is - go and enjoy and tell us afterwards how you got on
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wynd
Guest
My advice to you would be to attend Divine Liturgy exclusively for a month or two and let the Eastern way start seeping into you before you make a decision.
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LakaYaRabb
Guest
GladCatholic,
Do not run away from the Roman Church, you won’t do well in the East. If there is an Eastern Church you love, then join it and request a transfer of Churches after a time. However, a transfer of Churches is not mandatory.
The most important thing is to love and serve God and to do His Will in your life.
Do not run away from the Roman Church, you won’t do well in the East. If there is an Eastern Church you love, then join it and request a transfer of Churches after a time. However, a transfer of Churches is not mandatory.
The most important thing is to love and serve God and to do His Will in your life.
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Catholig
Guest
Wannabee,
I was simply saying what I’d do. I didn’t infer from GladCatholic’s post that she (he?) was planning on switching rites.
Catholig
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wynd
Guest
I agree with this. You should run to the East, because you love it, not from the West because you are upset—although I can completely understand where you are coming from, myself once having been in that situation.
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Woodstock
Guest
I encourage you to be part of the solution for your beloved western tradition. Finding a single priest willing to offer the TLM under the new moto proprio, offering daily prayers with others at the parish or in a home, sponsoring a book study, and any other number of things can help to do so.
If you can’t attend your local RC parishes while doing these things, by all means go to the EC parish. Out of respect and understanding, it would be nice if you were discreet about retaining any Latin customs and did not insist on any which are incompatible with the east, such as kneeling on a Sunday. Recognize it for what it is: a time of transition.
While you are there, you might fall in love with the eastern Church and all it has to offer, and if that happens then consider a change of church. If not, retain your love of the western practice and theology and work to restore it so that you can return to your home when the time comes.
If you can’t attend your local RC parishes while doing these things, by all means go to the EC parish. Out of respect and understanding, it would be nice if you were discreet about retaining any Latin customs and did not insist on any which are incompatible with the east, such as kneeling on a Sunday. Recognize it for what it is: a time of transition.
While you are there, you might fall in love with the eastern Church and all it has to offer, and if that happens then consider a change of church. If not, retain your love of the western practice and theology and work to restore it so that you can return to your home when the time comes.
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Ridgerunner
Guest
I think there are going to be a lot of improvements in the Latin dioceses over the next few years. Already are in some, though it sounds like yours is going the other direction. You are fortunate in having Eastern Catholic parishes you can go to. I don’t. But my bishop’s retirement is already past due, so I’ll be patient. Already have been for going on 30 years now!
In my parish, we Anglos go to the English Mass. The Hispanics go to a Spanish Mass. If we had the TLM we could go to Mass together! Sometimes I wonder what some of these bishops are thinking!
In my parish, we Anglos go to the English Mass. The Hispanics go to a Spanish Mass. If we had the TLM we could go to Mass together! Sometimes I wonder what some of these bishops are thinking!
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bpbasilphx
Guest
<<However, I should’ve probably attended the liturgy in Ukrainian. >>
Why? I’m going to ask a hard question: So you could pretend you were listening to Latin? (Some of the biggest opponents of using English in the Divine Liturgy are disaffected Latins.)
<<I guess being unfamiliar with the Divine Liturgy, I had to have my attention diverted by reading along, making sure I was in the right place,>>
In a way, it’s a shame. The last thing you should have done your first time at the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom was to get bogged down in a book. For now, simply go, pray, watch, listen, and as someone said, let the service seep into you.
Keep in mind that the Eastern Churches have their own spiritual heritage and practices. They are not a refuge for people who think they will find Latin Catholicism from the 50’s as they think they remember it. (Some of these very people would also oppose putting up iconostasia and infant communion, and insist on having Stations and Benediction in Lent rather than the traditional services of Presanctified, Great Compline, and Akathists…and so it goes.)
If you use this approach, you will be miserable.
If you accept the Eastern Churches–any of them–on their own terms, you will find them to be truly pearls of great price.
Why? I’m going to ask a hard question: So you could pretend you were listening to Latin? (Some of the biggest opponents of using English in the Divine Liturgy are disaffected Latins.)
<<I guess being unfamiliar with the Divine Liturgy, I had to have my attention diverted by reading along, making sure I was in the right place,>>
In a way, it’s a shame. The last thing you should have done your first time at the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom was to get bogged down in a book. For now, simply go, pray, watch, listen, and as someone said, let the service seep into you.
Keep in mind that the Eastern Churches have their own spiritual heritage and practices. They are not a refuge for people who think they will find Latin Catholicism from the 50’s as they think they remember it. (Some of these very people would also oppose putting up iconostasia and infant communion, and insist on having Stations and Benediction in Lent rather than the traditional services of Presanctified, Great Compline, and Akathists…and so it goes.)
If you use this approach, you will be miserable.
If you accept the Eastern Churches–any of them–on their own terms, you will find them to be truly pearls of great price.
B
bpbasilphx
Guest
PS–I will admit that the Divine Liturgy can be a bit bewildering at first. (I’ve felt similarly out to sea when attending non-Byzantine Easern liturgies.)
But if you hang in there, you will see it’s a seamless skein of sung prayer, and you’ll get most of it from memory sooner than you think!
But if you hang in there, you will see it’s a seamless skein of sung prayer, and you’ll get most of it from memory sooner than you think!
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Apotheoun
Guest
Well said.
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GladCatholic
Guest
For some reason this post irritated me a bit, probably because I’m fairly sad and maybe misinterpreting the intent, so I apologize if I respond in any way uncharitably.
I said I should’ve attended in Ukrainian, first, because I wouldn’t have been able to have used the book at all. The temptation to follow along wouldn’t have been there. Second, that’s the Mass with the choir and the people and I think I probably would’ve been uplifted by that.
Also, I wasn’t even born in the 50s. If you had read thoroughly my post, you’d know I have Latin indult parish in my diocese (and it’s less than 20 minutes from me). I have attended periodically for the past 4 years, high Masses, low Masses, choral Masses, etc. That being said, the parish has been recommended to merge. My frustrations and sadness have nothing to do with looking for a Latin Mass. Pesonally, I don’t find the Tridentine Mass any more beautiful than a beautifully celebrated Novus Ordo. I’ve attended a Novus Ordo Mass everyday for the last 4 years, a beautiful and reverend Mass. Of course the parish is recommended to close so at that point, there won’t be one left.
I was reading these boards a long time before I signed up. I think it would be good for posters to assume the best in a post and not the worst, not that someone is running from something and to something else, or someone is seeking for any reasons other than what they state. I had read the altar is a door between heaven and earth, but right now it’s hard to find the door and the state of the liturgy in the diocese is the cause. Sometimes God just draws people other places, so it seems I’m being drawn someplace but I can’t figure out where, and now with the even further deterioration of the diocese, it appears it’ll be a little while longer before I find where I’m supposed to be.
GC
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wannabee
Guest
GC - I think I know why that post was written
In far too many instances we have seen people come from the RC Parishes.
For a while they seem happy - then they want to get their familiar things back and we can be faced with demands for things wich do not belong to our tradition - Stations of the Cross on the walls , Statues , services such as Benediction. They start complaining that we don’t kneel - it can get trying you know.
In far too many instances we have seen people come from the RC Parishes.
For a while they seem happy - then they want to get their familiar things back and we can be faced with demands for things wich do not belong to our tradition - Stations of the Cross on the walls , Statues , services such as Benediction. They start complaining that we don’t kneel - it can get trying you know.
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GladCatholic
Guest
Hence a suggestion to view posts in the best possible light and try to supress the suspicions–to be thought that I may be viewed by someone wanting to change a rite’s tradition is hardly comforting. I thought we were supposed to always assume the best. This is a very hard struggle for me.
I’m surprised I hadn’t noticed something before all this though–I have a home chapel and it’s adorned with 15 Byzantine icons, no statues. I see His beauty in those icons, which I first started seeing when I began retreating at a hermitage. If an RC wanted Stations of the Cross, they’re abundant during Lent. Every RC church as the stations. If they want benediction, that’s also easy enough to find.
I am glad the priest I spoke with at the Byzantine church was much less suspicious of my intentions as some here or I’d have felt unwelcome as an RC. Goodness! To even suggest one is investigating an eastern church in its native language as a substitute for a Latin Mass…
I’m probably overreacting so please accept my apologies. One good thing today in Mass though–the Psalm is 139. He knows what each of us are thinking, feeling, doing, saying, desiring, etc. It’s comforting to know that and to know it’s all for the best.
GC
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wannabee
Guest
GC - being absolutely honest - I think you are over reacting - sorry.
Many ECs have found Latins coming to their Churches because they are tired of abuses etc in their Parish and can’t find anything else that is more reverent .
Many of these RCs have tried complaining and got no where - so eventually they up sticks and go - usually East. As I said - they are happy for a while and then start missing things - like kneeling , or Rosary before the Service. Maybe these problems are due to lack of ‘education’ for them while attending an Eastern Church , I don’t know .
What I do know is that many of my friends report that these disaffected Latins want to continue their traditional ways in an Eastern Church and Latin traditions are not always Eastern traditions - and this can lead to friction.
We all know some Eastern Churches that are still pretty heavily Latinised - but this is due to historical problems and slowly these are becoming less in number.
Nobody wants to stop someone saying the Rosary - it’s fine as a personal devotion - but it is not, or it should not be, a public devotion in our Churches . The same applies to 'doing ’ Stations in Lent - nothing wrong as a personal Devotion - but it’s NOT our tradition.
How would you feel about bout going to Mass and finding a group of Ukrainians having a Panakhida after Mass ?
Mixing and matching does not work
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GladCatholic
Guest
So there’s as many generalizations and stereotypes in the religious world as there are in the secular. I think maybe I’m not of the suspicious nature which is why I’m “overreacting.”
Despite this forum, which isn’t the best place to go for support apparently, I’m headed back to Philly for some books on Eastern Christianity… Don’t worry–I don’t pray the Rosary as a devotion (and I’ve always felt a bit guilty about that) and I won’t make any attempt to force you to kneel.
Oh, BTW, perhaps the place I went for Liturgy is too westernized because I noticed the same things as Sunday Mass–people arriving late, talking loudly after Liturgy, and dressed down in casuals. Maybe I was just in too “western” of a church and they’ve accepted those particular western traditions.
Thanks all for your help.
Jackie
Despite this forum, which isn’t the best place to go for support apparently, I’m headed back to Philly for some books on Eastern Christianity… Don’t worry–I don’t pray the Rosary as a devotion (and I’ve always felt a bit guilty about that) and I won’t make any attempt to force you to kneel.
Oh, BTW, perhaps the place I went for Liturgy is too westernized because I noticed the same things as Sunday Mass–people arriving late, talking loudly after Liturgy, and dressed down in casuals. Maybe I was just in too “western” of a church and they’ve accepted those particular western traditions.
Thanks all for your help.
Jackie
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wannabee
Guest
GC - we are all human and have human failings
It was a long time as an RC before i prayed the Rosary - was never comfortable with it - and now use my Chotki all the time
OH yes - I am Eastern - and have the paperwork to prove it too
Do what you feel is Rite
- intended ] for you.Take your time - there’s no rush
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JohnPaulSteve
Guest
Amen!
In our diocese, priests are coming out of the woodwork to say Mass in the Extraordinary Form (under the Motu Proprio).
I have several Latin Mass options to choose from, but I haven’t been to any yet, although I keep meaning to go. But my home parish is my family, and I always want to be with them on the weekends.
The nearest Byzantine liturgy is several hours away, alas. But I’m not horribly dissatisfied with the Latin Rite liturgy, anyway, so I feel no overwhelming urge to go East.
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