Disobedient woman - Obedient woman

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Thinking on Mary being described as the new Eve, I need to question why God would choose to create the disobedient woman (Eve) rather than the obedient woman (Mary).

Both had freewill, so it’s not like creating Mary as the first woman who chose to obey God and keep all of humanity in relationship with God would have taken anyone’s freewill away, just as Eve disobeying does not take away freewill, but it would have avoided a lot of pain and suffering we humans experience due to not being in full relationship with God.

God knew that his first human creatures would turn from him, but he also knew there was one woman who would not.
God is difficult to understand…

Thoughts?
 
the phrase in Latin: “O felix culpa” – “Oh happy fault”

Without the sin, there would be no need for the savior.

By the sin, God allowed an even greater good.

We admire and love Mary more now because we know what she did – and we can admire and understand God’s love better now because we know the price Jesus paid for our redemption.
 
Thinking on Mary being described as the new Eve, I need to question why God would choose to create the disobedient woman (Eve) rather than the obedient woman (Mary).

God is difficult to understand…

Thoughts?
My first thought is, isn’t this the question many men ask!

In all seriousness though, here are my very uneducated thoughts, based on life.

Now, it is my very uneducated opinion, we grow as people, and mature emotionally and in our character through all the grief we experience.
If we ticked along with no heartaches, negative experiences, loss, pain, would we be challenged to grow.

So as with our souls, in order to grow, we need choices, challenge and pain. In fasting, for example, we learn self control, and how to say no to ourselves and discipline,

So if God made all women like Our Blessed Virgin, we would already be in Heaven. I suspect Our Lady was much more intelligent and spiritually mature then the rest of us. Eve, just like us!
 
If Eve is on record for only screwing up once, she did a lot better than I currently do…

God’s sovereignty and man’s free moral agency exist in duality. God arguably made you to pick the soda you picked at lunch, you also did it of your own free choosing.

The “train” runs on both the left and right rails. It does not run on one any more or any less than it runs on the other.
 
The problem is your thinking that God created Eve to disobey and Mary to obey. God created Adam and Eve to live eternally in union with Him. However being the good Father He gave us free will because to make a species of mindless slaves would not be perfect and God is perfect. So God created us and gave us free will even though He knew we would disobey, we would hurt Him, we would even scourge and crucify Him. He created us because He is the good Father, because He loves us.

Most of the time I say you have to look at your relationship between you and God as a marriage but this time I have to say look at your relationship as a Father and child. Do you raise one child to obey and the other to disobey? Does a good Father not give both children the same love, attention, gifts and so on?

How much better is God than any of us human fathers?
 
My first thought is, isn’t this the question many men ask!

In all seriousness though, here are my very uneducated thoughts, based on life.

Now, it is my very uneducated opinion, we grow as people, and mature emotionally and in our character through all the grief we experience.
If we ticked along with no heartaches, negative experiences, loss, pain, would we be challenged to grow.

So as with our souls, in order to grow, we need choices, challenge and pain. In fasting, for example, we learn self control, and how to say no to ourselves and discipline,

So if God made all women like Our Blessed Virgin, we would already be in Heaven. I suspect Our Lady was much more intelligent and spiritually mature then the rest of us. Eve, just like us!
Thanks for your thoughts.

I get what you are describing about experience of life, pain and growing etc, but it seems Adam and Eve did not experience life as we do.

I’m not thinking about God making all women like Mary, I’m contemplating the idea of God creating one that breaks the relationship, when there was one who would not.
 
Originally Posted by USMC_Convert
The problem is your thinking that God created Eve to disobey and Mary to obey.
It sound a bit like that doesn’t it.

I don’t think God created Eve to disobey, but he knew she would, and what the outcome of the break in relationship to God would create for all of the human race. God also knew there was one who would obey his will.

I don’t see how we could be a species of mindless slaves if Adam and Eve had not turned away from God?
 
Eve did not commit the Original Sin because she is not the original human.

Does that fact make a difference?
 
It sound a bit like that doesn’t it.

I don’t think God created Eve to disobey, but he knew she would, and what the outcome of the break in relationship to God would create for all of the human race. God also knew there was one who would obey his will.

I don’t see how we could be a species of mindless slaves if Adam and Eve had not turned away from God?
If Adam and Eve had not sinned then we would not be a species of mindless slaves, since they did sin we know we are not a species of mindless slaves. God’s gift of free will means that they had a choice whether they decided to obey or not means they had free will. The fact is they, both, not just Eve, not just Adam, both of them decided to disobey God.

If you look up the actual word used when describing “woman” it literally translates to divine helper. Or one who is given by God to help. So Eve was given to Adam to help him. As all women are to help men, see any great man and you see a great woman behind him. God gave us (men) this gift, I think, in foreknowledge that we would reject Him and walking with Him in paradise, so that we would always and no matter what have a helper physically here with us.

What I am getting at is I think you are putting to much emphasis on Eve. Adam had a choice, to listen to God or to follow in sin. He choose to follow in sin, and as St Paul explicitly says “through one man sin entered into the world”. Not through Eve, not through a woman, “through one man”.
 
Eve did not commit the Original Sin because she is not the original human.

Does that fact make a difference?
I’m not thinking on original sin as such, Eve was the first to sin not Adam according to the Genesis account, and I know Adam is the one held responsible 👍
 
Thinking on Mary being described as the new Eve, I need to question why God would choose to create the disobedient woman (Eve) rather than the obedient woman (Mary).

Both had freewill, so it’s not like creating Mary as the first woman who chose to obey God and keep all of humanity in relationship with God would have taken anyone’s freewill away, just as Eve disobeying does not take away freewill, but it would have avoided a lot of pain and suffering we humans experience due to not being in full relationship with God.

God knew that his first human creatures would turn from him, but he also knew there was one woman who would not.
God is difficult to understand…

Thoughts?
I am beginning to doubt the word “new” because it does not make sense to me. If we say that Mary is the new Eve, I would need lots of explanation as to how Mary could be someone else.
 
Originally Posted by USMC_Convert
If Adam and Eve had not sinned then we would not be a species of mindless slaves, since they did sin we know we are not a species of mindless slaves. God’s gift of free will means that they had a choice whether they decided to obey or not means they had free will. The fact is they, both, not just Eve, not just Adam, both of them decided to disobey God.
Thanks for clearing the mindless slaves statement up.

The question isn’t about freewill.
If you look up the actual word used when describing “woman” it literally translates to divine helper. Or one who is given by God to help. So Eve was given to Adam to help him. As all women are to help men, see any great man and you see a great woman behind him. God gave us (men) this gift, I think, in foreknowledge that we would reject Him and walking with Him in paradise, so that we would always and no matter what have a helper physically here with us.
I don’t share this way of thinking, I have a different Catholic brain in that we are made in the image and likeness of God, equal to each other as humans, not one made in order to make the other great. It goes both ways in the generation I live in.
What I am getting at is I think you are putting to much emphasis on Eve. Adam had a choice, to listen to God or to follow in sin. He choose to follow in sin, and as St Paul explicitly says “through one man sin entered into the world”. Not through Eve, not through a woman, “through one man”.
I think we aren’t on the same page, Eve sinned first, she disobeyed God’s command, and in turn gave the fruit to Adam, who could have refused it but did not. Mary when told/asked she would bare a son who was the Divine saviour, could have refused but didn’t, she obeyed the will of God.
Mary could have been the first woman God created in the garden, thus avoiding sin and saving humanity from the beginning.

( did I really say that last line…:eek::o )
 
I am beginning to doubt the word “new” because it does not make sense to me. If we say that Mary is the new Eve, I would need lots of explanation as to how Mary could be someone else.
I don’t fully understand it either, just as Jesus being described as the new Adam. Jesus is Divine, Adam was not Divine.

I have read a few writings and in some ways it makes a little sense, Eve is the mother of all living, and we say Mary is our Mother (spiritually speaking).
 
Eve did not commit the Original Sin because she is not the original human.
Hiya ganny. I think the idea that Mary is the new Eve works like this:

First, Paul agrees that Eve did not commit the original sin: “Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned” - Romans 5:12

Paul also says Jesus is the new Adam: “So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.” - 1 Cor 15

Now of course ‘man’ here is mankind, both female and male are of earth and of heaven.

When Mary is called the new Eve, the idea is that just as Eve’s disobedience helps bring about the fall, so Mary’s obedience helps reverse it. It’s arguable whether the idea is biblical, but it doesn’t work against scripture and has a neat symmetry.
 
I don’t fully understand it either, just as Jesus being described as the new Adam. Jesus is Divine, Adam was not Divine.

I have read a few writings and in some ways it makes a little sense, Eve is the mother of all living, and we say Mary is our Mother (spiritually speaking).
I can picture reading what you are saying; but my older than dirt mind will not give me the link. Somehow, there was something unusual…

Subsequently, I did find a posted link.
 
Here is the text in the link for your interest :

MARY, THE NEW EVE, FREELY OBEYED GOD
Pope John Paul II

Before the great mystery of the Incarnation, Mary spoke her ‘yes’ and expressed her complete acceptance of God’s saving plan for mankind
“In stating her total ‘yes’ to the divine plan, Mary is completely free before God. At the same time, she feels personally responsible for humanity, whose future was linked with her reply”, the Holy Father said at the General Audience of Wednesday, 18 September, as he examined the significance of Mary as the New Eve. Here is a translation of the Pope’s catechesis, which was given in Italian and was the 33rd in the series on the Blessed Mother.
  1. Commenting on the episode of the Annunciation, the Second Vatican Council gives special emphasis to the value of Mary’s assent to the divine messenger’s words. Unlike what occurs in similar biblical accounts, it is expressly awaited by the angel: “The Father of mercies willed that the Incarnation should be preceded by assent on the part of the predestined mother, so that just as a woman had a share in bringing about death, so also a woman should contribute to life” (Lumen gentium, n. 56).
Lumen gentium recalls the contrast between Eve’s behaviour and that of Mary, described by St Irenaeus: “Just as the former—that is, Eve—was seduced by the words of an angel so that she turned away from God by disobeying his word, so the latter—Mary—received the good news from an angel’s announcement in such a way as to give birth to God by obeying his word; and as the former was seduced so that she disobeyed God, the latter let herself be convinced to obey God, and so the Virgin Mary became the advocate of the virgin Eve. And as the human race was subjected to death by a virgin, it was liberated by a Virgin; a virgin’s disobedience was thus counterbalanced by a Virgin’s obedience…” (Adv. Haer., V, 19, 1).
 
Continued :

Mary co-operated through free faith and obedience
  1. In stating her total “yes” to the divine plan, Mary is completely free before God. At the same time, she feels personally responsible for humanity, whose future was linked with her reply.
God puts the destiny of all mankind in a young woman’s hands. Mary’s “yes” is the premise for fulfilling the plan which God in his love had prepared for the world’s salvation.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church briefly and effectively summarizes the decisive value for all humanity of Mary’s free consent to the divine plan of salvation. “The Virgin Mary ‘cooperated through free faith and obedience in human salvation’. She uttered her yes ‘in the name of all human nature’. By her obedience she became the New Eve, mother of the living” (n. 511).
  1. By her conduct, Mary reminds each of us of our serious responsibility to accept God’s plan for our lives. In total obedience to the saving will of God expressed in the angel’s words, she becomes a model for those whom the Lord proclaims blessed, because they “hear the word of God and keep it” (Lk 11:28). Jesus, in answering the woman in the crowd who proclaimed his mother blessed, discloses the true reason for Mary’s blessedness: her adherence to God’s will, which led her to accept the divine motherhood.
In the Encyclical Redemptoris Mater, I pointed out that the new spiritual motherhood of which Jesus speaks is primarily concerned with her. Indeed, “Is not Mary the first of ‘those who hear the word of God and do it’? And therefore does not the blessing uttered by Jesus in response to the woman in the crowd refer primarily to her?” (n. 20). In a certain sense therefore Mary is proclaimed the first disciple of her Son (cf. ibid.) and, by her example, invites all believers to respond generously to the Lord’s grace.
  1. The Second Vatican Council explains Mary’s total dedication to the person and work of Christ: “She devoted herself totally, as a handmaid of the Lord, to the person and work of her Son, under and with him, serving the mystery of redemption, by the grace of almighty God” (Lumen gentium, n. 56).
For Mary, dedication to the person and work of Jesus means intimate union with her Son, motherly involvement in nurturing his human growth and co-operation with his work of salvation.

Mary became cause of salvation for all humanity

Mary carries out this last aspect of her dedication to Jesus “under him”, that is, in a condition of subordination, which is the fruit of grace. However this is true co-operation, because it is realized “with him” and, beginning with the Annunciation, it involves active participation in the work of redemption. “Rightly, therefore”, the Second Vatican Council observes, “the Fathers see Mary not merely as passively engaged by God, but as freely co-operating in the work of man’s salvation through faith and obedience. For, as St Irenaeus says, she 'being obedient, became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race (Adv. Haer. III, 22, 4)’” (ibid.).

Mary, associated with Christ’s victory over the sin of our first parents, appears as the true “mother of the living” (ibid.). Her motherhood, freely accepted in obedience to the divine plan, becomes a source of life for all humanity.

Taken from:
L’Osservatore Romano
Weekly Edition in English
25 September 1996, page 19
 
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