Distinguishing Between Latria and Veneration

[Wm777]

And doulia doesn’t?

 

[vsedriver]

And doulia doesn’t?

no, nope, nada…

 

[Wm777]

Of course doulia does… All human relationships require sacrifice, too… It may not be a permanent sacrifice, as with latria, but it can be…

Suppose, for instance, the Franciscans wanted a church built… Save a miracle - it’s not just going to appear out of nowhere… They’re going to have to sacrifice and work together to build it… They do it for God, of course, but the fact is they do it for their order, or it might end up a Carmelite or Dominican or Carthusian church… which would be contrary to the assumption… Ergo, if it is a franciscan idea, and if such a church were to be dedicated to franciscan use, then they’re going to have to sweat, toil, sacrifice and cooperate to build it…

Or am I missing something?

 

[OddBird]

I am not sure I follow you on joining an order and latria. You say :

I am still pretty sure joining an order is doulia, not latria.

But then you make that comparison :

One way to look at it might be like joining one of the military services. Some join the navy, some the army, some the air force. They are all forms of service to protect a country (latria), but they assume different “modes” (doulia) of service.

I feel a bit lost here, and wonder if it is I who is missing something

To me, your second quote describes it perfectly : it is, ultimately, latria. The way to that latria varies, but it doesn’t change the fact that one is giving one’s entire life to God, and that this is precisely the sacrifice of latria. The particular spirituality of this or that order, their particular way of life, in view of that fundamental sacrifice, is accessory.

Suppose, for instance, the Franciscans wanted a church built… Save a miracle - it’s not just going to appear out of nowhere… They’re going to have to sacrifice and work together to build it… They do it for God, of course, but the fact is they do it for their order, or it might end up a Carmelite or Dominican or Carthusian church…

Yes, they do it for God.

Why, except from purely practical reasons like the convenience of having a conventual church, would Franciscans mind that their church ends up being used by Dominicans ? I’m honestly puzzled.

 

[porthos11]

Of course doulia does… All human relationships require sacrifice, too… It may not be a permanent sacrifice, as with latria, but it can be…

Suppose, for instance, the Franciscans wanted a church built… Save a miracle - it’s not just going to appear out of nowhere… They’re going to have to sacrifice and work together to build it… They do it for God, of course, but the fact is they do it for their order, or it might end up a Carmelite or Dominican or Carthusian church… which would be contrary to the assumption… Ergo, if it is a franciscan idea, and if such a church were to be dedicated to franciscan use, then they’re going to have to sweat, toil, sacrifice and cooperate to build it…

Or am I missing something?

You are not using the word “sacrifice” in its proper sense, only in its popular/colloquial sense. A proper sacrifice is an offering to God, through the ministry of a priest, of some good, and this dedication of the good to God usually required its destruction. The ancient sacrifices were of animals, grain, or drink, all of which carried economic consequences. The one and only Sacrifice of the Christian faith is the sacrifice of Jesus on Calvary.

That’s why latria is only latria insofar as the action leads to the Mass, finds its fulfillment in the Mass and is drawn from the Mass. The Mass itself is latria because it is THE Sacrifice, but the Liturgy of the Hours is also latria as it is an extension of the Mass, and our participation in the eternal hymn of praise in Heaven, which the Mass itself makes present to us. The Adoration of the Cross on Good Friday is latria, even though it’s not a Mass because it’s worship of God on the Cross, which the Mass makes present to us.

The “sacrifice” you describe is not sacrifice. It’s hard work, helping each other, but it’s not sacrifice in the required, cultic sense. The only real Sacrifice that will take place with regards to that example is the Mass that will take place in that church when it is built.

 

[Wm777]

I am not sure I follow you on joining an order and latria. You say :

Wm777:

I am still pretty sure joining an order is doulia, not latria.

But then you make that comparison :

One way to look at it might be like joining one of the military services. Some join the navy, some the army, some the air force. They are all forms of service to protect a country (latria), but they assume different “modes” (doulia) of service.

I feel a bit lost here, and wonder if it is I who is missing something

To me, your second quote describes it perfectly : it is, ultimately, latria. The way to that latria varies, but it doesn’t change the fact that one is giving one’s entire life to God, and that this is precisely the sacrifice of latria. The particular spirituality of this or that order, their particular way of life, in view of that fundamental sacrifice, is accessory.

Suppose, for instance, the Franciscans wanted a church built… Save a miracle - it’s not just going to appear out of nowhere… They’re going to have to sacrifice and work together to build it… They do it for God, of course, but the fact is they do it for their order, or it might end up a Carmelite or Dominican or Carthusian church…

Yes, they do it for God.

Why, except from purely practical reasons like the convenience of having a conventual church, would Franciscans mind that their church ends up being used by Dominicans ? I’m honestly puzzled.

I knew someone was going to ask that… LOL I just meant it as a reference point…

I’ve caught grief here in the forums for being shallow in my view of the orders, so - if I have offended - please to forgive… I tend to kid around a lot… The fact is, if I had mentioned earlier contests between the Franciscans and the Dominicans, then the whole thread would have veered off into some sort of witch hunt, and I’d be burned at the stake for going off-topic on… my own… topic… :\

To me, your second quote describes it perfectly : it is, ultimately, latria. The way to that latria varies, but it doesn’t change the fact that one is giving one’s entire life to God, and that this is precisely the sacrifice of latria. The particular spirituality of this or that order, their particular way of life, in view of that fundamental sacrifice, is accessory.

Hmmm… maybe this will help?

So we’re in agreement latria is the end of it, and the focus of our inquiry is on doulia… which is a sort of way to get to heaven via service to some order’s rule…

In my experience with the orders (and I’ve courted quite a few) you can’t be in but one of them… For example, I’ve never heard of any instance where friar is also a prior…

So you would have to commit to one of them.

But suppose you loved them both… Then you’d be in a quandry… Would you be a franciscan? If so, you couldn’t be a dominican… Would you be a Dominican? Then you couldnt be a franciscan…

(continued below)

 

[Wm777]

Thus - in a human sense - your “doulia modus operandi” is just as sacrificial as your latria… It’s still a human trait or characteristic, so it still seems like it could fluctuate… I know of some TOR’s who have taken time off from community… or who have disagreed with one another, and yet had to admit their opinions to the community, and yet yield their actions to conform to the order in to cooperate with it… That’s why I say “doulia” seems to require just as much sacrifice…

People may tend to have trouble with it, though… It isnt easy, and people in religion will often tend to focus more on God than on their fellow man… And, yet, Christ created both and expects us to show His gift of mercy to both Him AND His Creation… We get it all back in the end, but it only comes about through sharing it…

Hoping this makes sense… Let me know, if not… It’s a challenge to answer the questions, but also a learning experience when challenged…

 

[Isearch]

Latria in its definition requires a literal physical altar, a priest to offer the gifts, and the gifts intended to be changed and offered to the deity. Sure there are “sacrifices” in dulia, but this is not generally understood as a sacrifice in the traditional sense. This is why the official sacrifice of Christianity is the Eucharist, the Jews wish to properly worship God by offering sacrifices if the temple were to be rebuilt, and some pagans offer animals to the spirits or their deities.

 

[JimG]

In the Mass we offer the sacrifice of Jesus to the Father in reparation for the sins of humanity. It is a perpetual sacrifice offered to our Creator, not to any creature.

It would not be possible to offer latria to a saint or to the Blessed Mother unless we believed that the saint or Mary created us from nothing and held us in existence through his or her own Divine power.

 

[MariaChristi]

Dear William,

Your thread is long with many “moving parts”. I want to reply to you William. Sorry if it takes more words than I’d like, but I pray it is clear. God’s Word is the primary source for the Church. When the Church used the words: “Latria”, “Hyperdulia” and “Dulia”, I believe she was guiding us to Truth received from the Holy Spirit.

God Alone is Creator over all. God alone is to be loved, and served above all others for He is ALL in all. Without God Who is Love, there would be nothing. Thus “Latria” is His alone, and the Catholic Church rightly teaches the differences between God and His creatures.

Only by His Grace could Mary and the Saints, be loved and honored by us and and even our enemies be loved as Jesus commanded us to love our enemies.

Mary, however; is intrinsic to God’s plan to send Jesus after the Original Sin that we may not be lost. No other human person was conceived without sin and remained sinless but Mary. She needs to be raised above all other holy men and women saints of the Church, that she may serve as both Mother and Model for us all – to “Behold” how God “perfects” a human person. Because of God’s unique work in her, Mary receives “Hyperdulia”.

All other saints who love God and serve Him well can never come even close to the degree of Glory God has given to His Humble Mother, but they are like Mary in varying degrees in their Supernatural faith, hope and charity. By God’s Grace they attained the holiness God desires for His children. Thus they receive "dulia"

Your wrote in your OP, William:

Anything could be helpful, I guess, but I think I’m looking for some sort of trace evidence to distinguish between them.

The evidence I find is in Scripture, Tradition and the Magisterium.

In the Old Testament (Gen. 3: 15) God speaks of Jesus to come. After Adam and Eve’s sin the Lord promised a savior. He spoke to the serpent in the hearing of Adam and Eve. He speaks to us through His Inspired writers of Scripture:

I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; They will strike at your head, while you strike at their heel.

In the New Testament, God’s Word speaks of this New Adam born of the Virgin Mary and all her offspirng given to her from the Cross where Christ struck the head of satan and restored us to God’s friendship which Adam and Eve had lost.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him might not perish but might have eternal life. -John 3:16

After Jesus ascended, He the Incarnate Son and the The Father sent the Holy Spirit to the Church at Pentecost to bring the Church into ALL the Truth. (cf Jn 16: 13) and the Holy Spirit continues enabling us to ponder the Revelation of Jesus in Sacred Scripture, in Sacred Tradition and in the Official Magisterium.

The Church in giving the words “Latria”’ “Hyperdulia” and “Dulia” sought to help the offspring of Mary to become Holy as God is Holy, i.e. to grow by His Grace to the perfection of Divine Charity which lasts forever. Hope this is helpful.