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Maranatha
Guest
How should I approach someone who says they believe in Jesus Christ but are distrustful of organized religion?
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Salmon
Guest
You might ask them if Jesus instituted disorganized religion.
Or did He found a Church?
People are uncomfortable submitting to authority. They wish to follow their own conscience.
Hitler followed his own conscience.
Josef Stalin followed his own conscience.
Peace in Christ…Salmon
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ahimsaman72
Guest
Those two men followed only their selfish desires, not their consciences. Had they listened to their consciences, they would’ve not done the things they did.
Most don’t believe Christ organized the Christian religion. Evangelicals do not believe in an organized Church as Catholics do - not in the hierarchy sense anyway. Of course, you know this already.
People, like me, are uncomfortable with submitting to an authority that is imposed, rather than freely accepted. The same thing happens with occupying armies in wartime. Do the subjects generally like having an occupied army on their land? Not usually.
Peace…
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otm
Guest
Curiosity is always a good way. Ask “Why?”, and then listen, Then ask another question, and another…
One of the biggest problems people have is getting in a hurry to answer. They “soapbox”, spilling all sorts of information, and often succeeding in confirming the issue that is too often just beneath the surface: that “so and so type of group” doesn’t listen. Essentially, it is similar to the Socratic method of learning; asking a lot of questions, but not necessarily giving a lot of answers. Done correctly, you can often lead someone to answer the questions they have, or the basis for their beliefs, by getting them to probe deeply into what they most likely have only given a shallow treatment. Listening also allows someone who may have been hurt by organized religion to vent, and to realize that it maight not have been organized religion that really hurt them, but an individual.
It is a bit akin to someone who left the Church because “yada yada yada”, which really had nothing to do with the Church, but had a lot to do with a person ( Father so and so or Sister Whatshername); everybody comes along trying to revert this person to the Church because it is the (fill in the blank), and nothing they say has any meaning, and further works to confirm that the Church doesn’t care, because that person doing all the talking, instead of listening, doesn’t care enought to listen to the hurt.
One of the biggest problems people have is getting in a hurry to answer. They “soapbox”, spilling all sorts of information, and often succeeding in confirming the issue that is too often just beneath the surface: that “so and so type of group” doesn’t listen. Essentially, it is similar to the Socratic method of learning; asking a lot of questions, but not necessarily giving a lot of answers. Done correctly, you can often lead someone to answer the questions they have, or the basis for their beliefs, by getting them to probe deeply into what they most likely have only given a shallow treatment. Listening also allows someone who may have been hurt by organized religion to vent, and to realize that it maight not have been organized religion that really hurt them, but an individual.
It is a bit akin to someone who left the Church because “yada yada yada”, which really had nothing to do with the Church, but had a lot to do with a person ( Father so and so or Sister Whatshername); everybody comes along trying to revert this person to the Church because it is the (fill in the blank), and nothing they say has any meaning, and further works to confirm that the Church doesn’t care, because that person doing all the talking, instead of listening, doesn’t care enought to listen to the hurt.
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ahimsaman72
Guest
I think you would have to show them some good results from organized religion. There should be some benefits and rewards to have resulted from a religion before that religion makes any sense. Unfortunately, most religions have only caused more problems than gave solutions to those problems.
Why would anyone submit to a religion that they felt would not be of benefit to them spiritually?
Peace…
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Exporter
Guest
Ahimasam72
“People, like me, are uncomfortable with submitting to an authority that is imposed, rather than freely accepted. The same thing happens with occupying armies in wartime. Do the subjects generally like having an occupied army on their land? Not usually.”
A-72, Would you like to rethink this? Matt16:18-19 here we see that Christ did institute a Church, His Church…believe it or not. One thing I have noticed about the Catholic Church is that they never force anyone to do anything, no, not even a Priest - he can leave. They don’t try to prevent anyone from leaving the Church. It purely voluntary.
“People, like me, are uncomfortable with submitting to an authority that is imposed, rather than freely accepted. The same thing happens with occupying armies in wartime. Do the subjects generally like having an occupied army on their land? Not usually.”
A-72, Would you like to rethink this? Matt16:18-19 here we see that Christ did institute a Church, His Church…believe it or not. One thing I have noticed about the Catholic Church is that they never force anyone to do anything, no, not even a Priest - he can leave. They don’t try to prevent anyone from leaving the Church. It purely voluntary.
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caroljm36
Guest
Eh? So who is imposing this on you? Do you live in the U.S.? No one imposed Catholicism on me–I had to go to them, and the pastor I asked was surprised I wanted to join. No pressure at all, far from it. And after being raised by atheists with a pseudo-intellectual disdain for religion, it was refreshing to join the human race finally.
Doesn’t it make sense to you that people who have this fundamental faith in common might want to share it? I mean besides the fact that it was the Lord’s command that we gather together. People submit to schools, jobs, huge crowds at football games or rock concerts. Protestantism unleashed this trend toward individualism and isolation…every man his own church as Flannery O’Connor so aptly illustrated in her stories. Be careful you don’t cut yourself off from your brothers and sisters completely.
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Tom_of_Assisi
Guest
Do they prefer disorganized religions? I prefer mine neat and clean without too much mess personally.
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Tom_of_Assisi
Guest
Christ’s Church does not impose any authority on you…you must accept it of your own free will, or accpet something else (another place shall we say) of your own free will instead
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gomer_tree
Guest
Without knowing why they are distrustful, you will not change anyone’s mind about it. It is best to fully understand their experiences, their education, their perceptions and misconceptions.
Ususally, there’s some unifying root to that attitude. It may be as deep as they (or someone they knew) was abused in some way as a child by a person they should have trusted. It could be as shallow as that’s just what someone told them and they never questioned it. But those two cases would mean a markedly different approach in responding to that comment.
Ususally, there’s some unifying root to that attitude. It may be as deep as they (or someone they knew) was abused in some way as a child by a person they should have trusted. It could be as shallow as that’s just what someone told them and they never questioned it. But those two cases would mean a markedly different approach in responding to that comment.
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Genesis315
Guest
Organized religion asks you to make your opinions and beliefs conform to the Truth. This can be very difficult. Disorganized religion, so to speak, lets you conform the “truth” to your own personal opinions and beliefs. This is easy.
Check out Matt 7:13-14.
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Chris_Jacobsen
Guest
There are a lot of reasons to distrust organized religion. This is because organized religion has shown at times that it cannot be trusted.
In order to discuss with someone why they don’t trust organized religion, one needs to define “organized religion”. Then one needs to find out what things about organized religion the person doesn’t trust.
And finally, one has to figure out how the Catholic Church fits into the discussion.
In order to discuss with someone why they don’t trust organized religion, one needs to define “organized religion”. Then one needs to find out what things about organized religion the person doesn’t trust.
And finally, one has to figure out how the Catholic Church fits into the discussion.
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Absalom
Guest
Woo hoo! A Flannery O’Connor fan! :dancing:
Sorry, I just get excited to find people who actually read good literature.
One thing to consider (about the organized religion thing) is this: Does the person believe in the Trinity? That the Bible is the Infallible Word of God? That Christ had two natures, one human and one divine? If so, why? If it were not for organized religion, he/she would very likely not believe in any of those things.
I personally understand why some people have a disdain for organized religion when I look around at some of the idiots who adhere to it, but it’s not the people that I believe in. I think that in the end the whole “I’m spiritual but not religious” is usually just a cop out.
But that’s just me.
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Gilbert_Keith
Guest
How should I approach someone who says they believe in Jesus Christ but are distrustful of organized religion?
I’d ask this person why he is distrustful, and whether he thinks all religions are equally distrustful if he has had an experience with only one. Most of the people I know who distrust organized religion have been victims of control freaks inside those religions.
I’d also ask him if he thinks organization is an inherent evil in all applications. The alternative would be billions of private religions world wide and an anarchy of morals.
In America we are already close to that moral anarchy as fewer and fewer people (especially among the young) attend church services on a regular basis. The prisons are filled with people who did not like organized religion and decided to worship their own egos instead. Even in prison, they avoid chapel services and the recidivism rate for prisoners is horrendous.
Organized religion has to exist, and is the only counterweight to organized atheism, as many citizens of Poland and the Soviet Union will be glad to attest when considering their experience with organized atheism over the last century.
I’d ask this person why he is distrustful, and whether he thinks all religions are equally distrustful if he has had an experience with only one. Most of the people I know who distrust organized religion have been victims of control freaks inside those religions.
I’d also ask him if he thinks organization is an inherent evil in all applications. The alternative would be billions of private religions world wide and an anarchy of morals.
In America we are already close to that moral anarchy as fewer and fewer people (especially among the young) attend church services on a regular basis. The prisons are filled with people who did not like organized religion and decided to worship their own egos instead. Even in prison, they avoid chapel services and the recidivism rate for prisoners is horrendous.
Organized religion has to exist, and is the only counterweight to organized atheism, as many citizens of Poland and the Soviet Union will be glad to attest when considering their experience with organized atheism over the last century.
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ahimsaman72
Guest
Hello friend!
Yes, I will accept it is possible He did so. I mis-spoke probably in my post. I don’t believe that the Catholic Church forces conversions on people. What I meant to convey is that if one decided to be a Catholic then they must accept that authority and submit to it unwaveringly and follow “the rules” handed down by the people in power. I understand that conversion and leaving are voluntary actions by the person.
If I were to become a Muslim (no chance), then I would have to submit totally to Allah and Mohammed. His authority and rules would have to be obeyed or else!!! That’s where I was coming from.
Sorry for the confusion.
Peace…
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ahimsaman72
Guest
It makes sense to share one’s faith, yes. I’ve done it all my life. Schools, jobs, etc do not rule one’s spiritual life and decide one’s eternal fate dear friend. So, there’s no equal footing there.
Protestantism did nothing of the sort. Protestantism was a natural outgrowth of Christianity. Religions far older than Protestant Christianity valued individualism above dogma.
Peace…
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Steve_Andersen
Guest
Remind him of Jim Jones and David Koresh and the 30 Years War and crooked televangelist and fringe Muslim extremist and a host of other examples that show that **DIS-organized **religion is a terrible thing.
Humans are capable of infinite self-deception. There is nothing better than an organized body to give you a little reality check.
In some traditions anyone with a good hair cut and a smile can set up their own church. It is chaos I tell you…chaos.
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ahimsaman72
Guest
Steve Andersen:
Organized religion does far worse than televangelists and David Koresh’s. Organized religion has been the root cause of many, many wars and millions of deaths since the dawn of time. Crusades ring a bell?
Peace…
David Koresh was the not the infidel that the government played him up to be. They had no right to go in there and do what they did. What about Ruby Ridge? The ATF killed a woman who did nothing wrong. It is fear that makes the government go off on tangents and do the wrong things.
Organized religion does far worse than televangelists and David Koresh’s. Organized religion has been the root cause of many, many wars and millions of deaths since the dawn of time. Crusades ring a bell?
Peace…
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Maranatha
Guest
Well the advice form the posts above were correct. There were more issues going on than I supposed. The conversations were touchy and I didn’t want to drive her away, so I’ve been taking things slow.
I asked her what was her specific problem with organized religion. She was brought up a liberal protestant which stressed a personal relationship with God and inclusiveness. She was very defensive and brought up problems with Catholic teachings on contraception, women priests, homosexuality and abortion, I did my best to explain these positions without backing down or making excuses.
The topic of sin came up and she said she doesn’t believe in sin. I was a little surprised since she had mentioned she was a Christian. We talked about original sin and I explained that I thought of it as a tendency to think the bad guy was cool or the way everyone is attracted to breaking the rules or the tendency to take the easy path. She accused me of being self-righteous, judgmental and condensing. I was a little defensive at these accusations because I was trying my best not to be. I explained that I thought my faith was a gift and it was not my place to judge but to share what I thought was right.
Then we got to the root of the problem. Through tears and hugging she told me that when she was a teenager her Mother told her that not too long after she was born her Mother was pregnant again with her third child. Her Mother aborted the child because she though her marriage could not survive having a third. She defended her Mother as a charitable caring good person. I realized she did not want to think of her mother as committing a mortal sin and living with her soul in jeopardy.
Up to now my experiences with Catholic apologetics have been general theological academic debates. I tried my best to be consoling. The pain and guilt were overwhelming and she probably needs professional support. Our society seems to do a good job getting counseling to victims when there is violence or accidents in our work places or schools. Since abortion is not even seen as violence or a crime counseling is generally not offered but needs to be sought out.
Before I can suggest counseling, I need to convince her that her Mother’s actions were wrong. I think the abortion is at the root of the pain and guilt that she, and probably her Mother, are carrying around.
Before this encounter, I know at my core that abortion was wrong. This experience has convinced me, beyond a doubt, that it is evil. That fact that an action form over 30 years ago is causing such pain and suffering now is all the proof I need. It is indeed murder with its direct victim and collateral damage.
I asked her what was her specific problem with organized religion. She was brought up a liberal protestant which stressed a personal relationship with God and inclusiveness. She was very defensive and brought up problems with Catholic teachings on contraception, women priests, homosexuality and abortion, I did my best to explain these positions without backing down or making excuses.
The topic of sin came up and she said she doesn’t believe in sin. I was a little surprised since she had mentioned she was a Christian. We talked about original sin and I explained that I thought of it as a tendency to think the bad guy was cool or the way everyone is attracted to breaking the rules or the tendency to take the easy path. She accused me of being self-righteous, judgmental and condensing. I was a little defensive at these accusations because I was trying my best not to be. I explained that I thought my faith was a gift and it was not my place to judge but to share what I thought was right.
Then we got to the root of the problem. Through tears and hugging she told me that when she was a teenager her Mother told her that not too long after she was born her Mother was pregnant again with her third child. Her Mother aborted the child because she though her marriage could not survive having a third. She defended her Mother as a charitable caring good person. I realized she did not want to think of her mother as committing a mortal sin and living with her soul in jeopardy.
Up to now my experiences with Catholic apologetics have been general theological academic debates. I tried my best to be consoling. The pain and guilt were overwhelming and she probably needs professional support. Our society seems to do a good job getting counseling to victims when there is violence or accidents in our work places or schools. Since abortion is not even seen as violence or a crime counseling is generally not offered but needs to be sought out.
Before I can suggest counseling, I need to convince her that her Mother’s actions were wrong. I think the abortion is at the root of the pain and guilt that she, and probably her Mother, are carrying around.
Before this encounter, I know at my core that abortion was wrong. This experience has convinced me, beyond a doubt, that it is evil. That fact that an action form over 30 years ago is causing such pain and suffering now is all the proof I need. It is indeed murder with its direct victim and collateral damage.
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mercygate
Guest
Don’t start with convincing her that abortion is wrong. She already knows that, although she may not be ready to handle it fully. She is dealing with: my mother killed her baby – she could have killed me.
Look around - maybe on the Rachel’s Vineyard Priests for Life web sites for help with how to strengthen and encourage people in her position. This can be the key to opening her entire heart to the fullness of truth. But take it in quarter teaspoonfuls. First love her.
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