Divine Office or Liturgy of the Hours

[paul11b]

So I’ve been reading about the Monastic Diurnal, what exactly is it? Does is follow the traditional Roman calendar or is it different, is it very hard to say, is it in English? I’ve been considering buying a copy of the Monastic Diurnal. Also I can’t find the Roman Diurnal anywhere. I have even less of an idea what the Roman Diurnal is than I do about the Monastic Diurnal.

 

[OraLabora]

So I’ve been reading about the Monastic Diurnal, what exactly is it? Does is follow the traditional Roman calendar or is it different, is it very hard to say, is it in English? I’ve been considering buying a copy of the Monastic Diurnal. Also I can’t find the Roman Diurnal anywhere. I have even less of an idea what the Roman Diurnal is than I do about the Monastic Diurnal.

The Monastic Diurnal is the day hours of the traditional Benedictine Office: Lauds, Prime, Terce, Sext, None, Vespers, Compline. It excludes Vigils which would be in a separate book; very few people outside a monastery would pray the traditional Benedictine vigil of 12 psalms and two long readings (and 3 canticles, the gospel, Te Deum and another long reading or homily at Sundays and feasts). The traditional Monastic Diurnal, that is using a publication before Vatican-II, would not follow the Roman Calendar but the Monastic Calendar, which has saints and feasts proper to the Benedictines and would follow the pre-Vatican II liturgical year (i.e. includes Septuagesima, no OT but instead "weeks after Epiphany and “weeks after Pentecost”).

The Traditional Monastic Diurnal can only be prayed, licitly, in Latin as there is no approved vernacular translation. Any vernacular translation will be for the sake of understanding only, it has to be prayed in Latin.

However the Benedictine Office underwent renovation after Vatican II. It maintains the traditional psalm layout, but underwent the following changes:

1. The option to omit Prime and distribute its psalms to the other minor hours or Vigils
2. Update of the Liturgical Year to match the current practice (Advent, Christmas, Ordinary time, Lent, Eastertide, Ordinary time)
3. Update of all collects, intercessions, etc, to match the current LOTH
4. Addition of new saints to the calendar, removal of certain saints no longer on the calendar (similar to the Roman Office but still proper to the Benedictines)
5. OT canticle at Lauds matching the current LOTH
6. Option to place the hymn of Lauds, Vespers and Compline at the start of the Office (or retain it after the responsory for Lauds and Vespers, and after the psalmody at Compline)
7. Option to include the responsory and Gospel canticle (Nunc dimittis) at Compline (traditionally the Monastic Office has neither, both are replaced by a simple verse and response).
8. Where approved translations exist, the ability to use the vernacular.

The important thing is that the office continues to use the traditional Benedictine psalm schema laid out by St. Benedict in his 1500 y.o. rule: all psalms said in one week, certain psalms repeated every day (3 before the invitatory, 66, 50, 148-150 at Lauds, 4, 90 and 133 at compline, and the Gradual Psalms at the minor hours).

There are 3 other Benedictine schemas but they are completely post-Vatican II schemas. One of them, Schema B (used by our abbey) retains all 150 psalms in a week, which the Rule of St. Benedict allowed for.

 

[CatholicFireman]

So I’ve been reading about the Monastic Diurnal, what exactly is it? Does is follow the traditional Roman calendar or is it different, is it very hard to say, is it in English? I’ve been considering buying a copy of the Monastic Diurnal. Also I can’t find the Roman Diurnal anywhere. I have even less of an idea what the Roman Diurnal is than I do about the Monastic Diurnal.

It’s the Benedictine hours of Prime, Lauds, Terce, Sext, None, Vespers and Compline. Read about it from the abbey that publishes it: farnboroughabbey.org/press/dirunal.php

Here is a review: absnospin.blogspot.com/2008/01/monastic-diurnal-review.html

To learn it, try this site: saintsshallarise.blogspot.com/2009/04/learning-benedictine-office-1-so-your.html

There is also a seperate book for Matins.

Pax†

 

[CatholicFireman]

The Monastic Diurnal is the day hours of the traditional Benedictine Office: Lauds, Prime, Terce, Sext, None, Vespers, Compline. It excludes Vigils which would be in a separate book; very few people outside a monastery would pray the traditional Benedictine vigil of 12 psalms and two long readings (and 3 canticles, the gospel, Te Deum and another long reading or homily at Sundays and feasts). The traditional Monastic Diurnal, that is using a publication before Vatican-II, would not follow the Roman Calendar but the Monastic Calendar, which has saints and feasts proper to the Benedictines and would follow the pre-Vatican II liturgical year (i.e. includes Septuagesima, no OT but instead "weeks after Epiphany and “weeks after Pentecost”).

The Traditional Monastic Diurnal can only be prayed, licitly, in Latin as there is no approved vernacular translation. Any vernacular translation will be for the sake of understanding only, it has to be prayed in Latin.

However the Benedictine Office underwent renovation after Vatican II. It maintains the traditional psalm layout, but underwent the following changes:

1. The option to omit Prime and distribute its psalms to the other minor hours or Vigils
2. Update of the Liturgical Year to match the current practice (Advent, Christmas, Ordinary time, Lent, Eastertide, Ordinary time)
3. Update of all collects, intercessions, etc, to match the current LOTH
4. Addition of new saints to the calendar, removal of certain saints no longer on the calendar (similar to the Roman Office but still proper to the Benedictines)
5. OT canticle at Lauds matching the current LOTH
6. Option to place the hymn of Lauds, Vespers and Compline at the start of the Office (or retain it after the responsory for Lauds and Vespers, and after the psalmody at Compline)
7. Option to include the responsory and Gospel canticle (Nunc dimittis) at Compline (traditionally the Monastic Office has neither, both are replaced by a simple verse and response).
8. Where approved translations exist, the ability to use the vernacular.

The important thing is that the office continues to use the traditional Benedictine psalm schema laid out by St. Benedict in his 1500 y.o. rule: all psalms said in one week, certain psalms repeated every day (3 before the invitatory, 66, 50, 148-150 at Lauds, 4, 90 and 133 at compline, and the Gradual Psalms at the minor hours).

There are 3 other Benedictine schemas but they are completely post-Vatican II schemas. One of them, Schema B (used by our abbey) retains all 150 psalms in a week, which the Rule of St. Benedict allowed for.

What he said.

 

[Windmill]

If you are interested in buying the Roman Diurnal (Diurnale Romanum), you can find it here:

Preserving Christian Publications

NB: It’s Latin-only.

 

[vardaquinn]

I say the newer version, from Christian Prayer. I also have another book with the complete Office of Readings. I’ve never seen the older version, but I do hope they come out with a new translation and new edition of the American editions sometime soon-ish.

 

[paul11b]

Hey so I’ve also found the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Thoughts on that?

 

[OraLabora]

I do hope they come out with a new translation and new edition of the American editions sometime soon-ish.

When asked when the new Roman Antiphonary was going to come out, after the LOTH was introduced in its current form in 1970, the answer in Rome and Solesmes (charged with producing it) was “soon”.

The first volume that allows one to chant a complete Office in Gregorian chant came out… in 2010. I guess it’s like dog years or something, 1 Vatican year is really 7 human years, because “soon” turned out to be 40 years. And that’s only for Vespers of Sundays and feasts!!!

 

[Windmill]

Hey so I’ve also found the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Thoughts on that?

I’ve prayed both. The newer LOBVM is more variable throughout the week, has shorter offices, and the language is the same as the ICEL-ated LOTH (meh).

The pre-concilliar LOBVM is higher quality paper and binding, beautiful Latin/English prayers, has Gregorian chant notation, is more rigorous in it’s prayers, and has a richer tradition. However, the offices are longer, there are more offices in the day, it is a daily cycle instead of a weekly cycle like the modern version, and the language is hieratic English (thee, thou, henceforth, doth, prayeth, etc…) which some may like but I found distracting.

Both have minor seasonal changes throughout the year. So you kinda get a sense of liturgical seasons. The newer office more so than the older one.

What’ I’ve done is pray the LOTH throughout the week and do the pre-concilliar LOBVM on Saturdays to honor Our Lady. I have more time on the weekend, and I don’t have quite the sense of repetition as I would if that was all I prayed every day.

 

[paul11b]

I’ve prayed both. The newer LOBVM is more variable throughout the week, has shorter offices, and the language is the same as the ICEL-ated LOTH (meh).

The pre-concilliar LOBVM is higher quality paper and binding, beautiful Latin/English prayers, has Gregorian chant notation, is more rigorous in it’s prayers, and has a richer tradition. However, the offices are longer, there are more offices in the day, it is a daily cycle instead of a weekly cycle like the modern version, and the language is hieratic English (thee, thou, henceforth, doth, prayeth, etc…) which some may like but I found distracting.

Both have minor seasonal changes throughout the year. So you kinda get a sense of liturgical seasons. The newer office more so than the older one.

What’ I’ve done is pray the LOTH throughout the week and do the pre-concilliar LOBVM on Saturdays to honor Our Lady. I have more time on the weekend, and I don’t have quite the sense of repetition as I would if that was all I prayed every day.

Does that mean every single day you would pray the same psalms?

 

[LordHORSEY]

Speaking of old and new…I use the “new” Liturgy of the Hours, but include the old introductory and closing prayers. I’m having a hard time finding any information/rubrics concerning these prayers in English. I’m talking about the Aperi Domine os meum and the *Sacrosantae, et individuae Trinitati. * Specifically, my question is this: When is the Apostles’ Creed used? I know that the Our Father and the Hail Mary are used at the very end of the Sacrosantae, et individuae Trinitati. Thanks, LordHORSEY, Tiber River Swim Club.

 

[Windmill]

Does that mean every single day you would pray the same psalms?

For most of the year (apart from Advent, Christmas, and some isolated Marian feasts) you will pray the same Psalms each day. The office of Matins has varying Psalms that are different throughout the week (Mon&Thu, Tue&Fri, Wed&Sat&Sun), but these are the only things that change in a typical week.

When you hit Advent, there are some major substitutions to the original format.

When you hit Christmas, there are a few substitutions to the original format.

While some may say that this is tedious, I would say that it is no more tedious than the Rosary. Also, there is a certain comfort in having repetition because it gives rhythm to the day, week, and year. Another benefit to repetition with the traditional version is that you can learn the psalms by heart, then move on to learning the Latin, then move on to learning the Gregorian chant. It really has a lot more potential than the “newer” office.

Just my opinion.

 

[Laudate_Dominum]

Using a translated pre-Vatican II breviary is not liturgical as there is no official translation.

Whilst it is true that the Divine Office (and Little Offices) according to the norms of 1962 cannot be used in an official capacity as liturgical worship (that is it will not fulfil the obligation on secular and religious clerics who chose to recite the 1962 Office) to say that the translations are not “liturgical” sounds odd to me.

It’s perfectly liturgical. You are praying the same psalms, antiphons and readings. Simply in a different language. One’s lack of ability with Latin should not discourage someone from delving into the beautiful liturgical heritage of the Latin Church.

 

[OraLabora]

Whilst it is true that the Divine Office (and Little Offices) according to the norms of 1962 cannot be used in an official capacity as liturgical worship (that is it will not fulfil the obligation on secular and religious clerics who chose to recite the 1962 Office) to say that the translations are not “liturgical” sounds odd to me.

It’s perfectly liturgical. You are praying the same psalms, antiphons and readings. Simply in a different language. One’s lack of ability with Latin should not discourage someone from delving into the beautiful liturgical heritage of the Latin Church.

If you are using a pre-Vatican II breviary in any other language than Latin it isn’t liturgical, it is a private devotion. “Liturgical” means the public prayer of the Church. To be public prayer (even if said privately) it must be from an approved source. That means Latin only for the pre-Vatican II version as there are no approved vernacular translations. For the current Roman or monastic rites an approved translation or Latin may be used.

You may think it odd but that’s the way it is. This has been amply discussed in the past and Brother JR has very clearly explained it.

 

[alwayslooking]

I currently pray the one volume “Christian Prayer” version of the LOTH. I have the leather zipper version. I started a little over a year ago. I suppose one the full time job comes around (pray for a college grad please) I’ll move to the 4 volume version.

 

[Windmill]

While the liturgical police make it a point to repeatedly say “it is not liturgical to pray the 1962 Office(s) in English”, don’t interpret that to mean praying it in English has no value. I don’t know why people feel it is soooooooo important to reiterate this point over and over again. Yes, we know it’s not liturgical. Frankly, it doesn’t really matter to most people. In fact, they should be encouraged for taking on such a huge devotional endeavor. the 1962 Offices are a lot more rigorous and lengthy than the modern Offices. I know - I’ve tried. It is too much for me to get through in a day.

I’m sure God is not looking down saying, “Is that ENGLISH that I hear?!?!?! Ack! The cacophony!!”

I’m not upset about this, I just think it’s way too overstated here.

 

[Laudate_Dominum]

I’m aware that recitation of the Office according to the 1962 norms is not liturgical. I did say that it does not fulfil the obligation on those who by law are to recite the Hours of the Church. But it’s still “liturgical” prayer in that you are praying the same prayers. It’s just not allowed for public worship.

And at the end of the day even if you choose to pray, for example, the current Liturgy of the Hours which your approved vernacular, it’s just as much a private devotion of yours as you [speaking in general] are not bound by obligations to recite the Hours.

 

[OraLabora]

While the liturgical police make it a point to repeatedly say “it is not liturgical to pray the 1962 Office(s) in English”, don’t interpret that to mean praying it in English has no value. I don’t know why people feel it is soooooooo important to reiterate this point over and over again. Yes, we know it’s not liturgical. Frankly, it doesn’t really matter to most people. In fact, they should be encouraged for taking on such a huge devotional endeavor. the 1962 Offices are a lot more rigorous and lengthy than the modern Offices. I know - I’ve tried. It is too much for me to **get through in a day.

I’m sure God is not looking down saying, “Is that ENGLISH that I hear?!?!?! Ack! The cacophony!!”

I’m not upset about this, I just think it’s way too overstated here.

I pray a post Vatican II monastic Office that is about the same length as the 1962 Roman Breviary. Even if you are not bound to the Office praying it as a layperson is more than a private devotion if you use the approved texts. It is adding your voice to the public prayer of the Church, an act of unity in the Body of Christ. It is something that the Church explicitly recommends in the GILH. That isn’t being the “liturgical police”. It is saying that to participate in the official liturgy of the Church you need to use approved sources. Otherwise no matter how laudable the practice, it isn’t liturgy, it’s a private devotion. Calling something blue when it is green doesn’t make it blue…

Of course praying a private devotion has value and I never said it didn’t. But this thread is about the Liturgy or the Hours, not about private devotions.

 

[Laudate_Dominum]

I’m aware that recitation of the Office according to the 1962 norms is not liturgical. I did say that it does not fulfil the obligation on those who by law are to recite the Hours of the Church. But it’s still “liturgical” prayer in that you are praying the same prayers. It’s just not allowed for public worship.

And at the end of the day even if you choose to pray, for example, the current Liturgy of the Hours which your approved vernacular, it’s just as much a private devotion of yours as you [speaking in general] are not bound by obligations to recite the Hours.

Sorry the above should have read like so:

I’m aware that recitation of the Office in the vernacular according to the 1962 norms is not liturgical.