T
tomhuth
Guest
I am engaged in an email dialogue with a woman who says she is the national presiding bishop in something called the “Orthodox Catholic Church”, which appears to be a distant off-shoot of the Old Catholic schism after the first Vatican Council. It essentially puts Catholic-oid externals on an orthodoxy-less church experience, which appeals to uncatechized Catholics who are uncomfortable with the Church’s definitiveness on various moral issues. You can read about some of my interactions here and here.
At any rate, this woman appears to be sincere and so far is willing to exchange emails with me, so I want to benignly, invitingly and non-confrontationally get her to think through one issue at a time. She last wrote a long list of her complaints against the Catholic Church (I asked her to), and as you can imagine they are a lot of myths and distortions. Before I take on those however, I’m trying to start with one doctrinal issue about which I suspect I can get her to acknowledge that her position is illogical. That is whether or not divorce and remarriage are sinful. (Her church makes a big deal of helping Catholics remarry without the bother of annulment.)
So, what I would like to do is copy in my last email to her and ask you, my knowledgeable and articulate friends at CAF, to critique it, identify the weaknesses in my reasoning and approach, and give me feedback that will help me further engage with her. Here we go:
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Hello again, Donna. Thank you for writing. I have been traveling and then in the thick of budget planning (I run a non-profit health care corporation) so I haven’t been looking at my personal email until now. Phew! Hundreds of emails.
I would like to respond to many of the points you make, and show you how they are mistaken, but not all in one long email. If you will allow, in one or more later notes I will address them, or some of them anyway as I have the time and energy to do.
First, though, I would like to ask you to straighten me out on something - the question I asked at the end of my last note to you, about remarriage after divorce. Life will be so much easier for me if your position (that divorce and remarriage are not sinful) is correct. I am not divorced and remarried, but I know so many people who are and I worry about them. My position on it is a matter of logic, and less about theology and least of all about what the Catholic Church says. So what I would like to do is put my position in the form of a logical syllogism and ask you to show me how I am wrong.
Here it is:
Premise 1: God has the authority to determine what constitutes sinful conduct, including in such matters as divorce and remarriage, and no human being or group of human beings has the authority to determine otherwise.
Premise 2: Jesus is God, and in all four gospels he clearly and unequivocally condemned divorce and remarriage as gravely sinful.
Conclusion: Therefore, no one, including my Catholic Church or your Orthodox Catholic Church, has the authority to determine that divorce and remarriage are not gravely sinful.
That’s it. Perhaps the terms I’m using are ambiguous in some way, or perhaps one or both of the premises are false in a way not obvious to me, or perhaps the reasoning is fallacious in some way.
I imagine that as a bishop responsible for the safety of souls, you have thought this serious matter through. You will be doing me a Christian charity by correcting me.
Thanks, Donna, I look forward to your (name removed by moderator)ut. If you don’t get to it for several days, have a great week!
Tom
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Now, Friends, I know she isn’t really a priest or bishop; that’s a subject I wish to challenge her on once I establish credibility on couple of less personal doctrinal issues. The important thing is she thinks she’s a validly ordained priest and bishop, so I won’t challenge her on that for now. Likewise, there are probably other technical matters (the place of annulment, the liceity of Catholics attempting marriage outside of the Church, the authority of the Catholic Church, etc) that aren’t central to my argument so I have ignored them for now. Point is, I’m trying to meet her where she is, so you don’t need to comment on those aspects for me.
But if you see some important factual error on my part that has an impact on the logic, or if you see a problem with the logic itself, that’s really what I want your feedback on. Also, if you have ideas about various ways she might answer and then what my responses could be, that would be great.
Many thanks!
At any rate, this woman appears to be sincere and so far is willing to exchange emails with me, so I want to benignly, invitingly and non-confrontationally get her to think through one issue at a time. She last wrote a long list of her complaints against the Catholic Church (I asked her to), and as you can imagine they are a lot of myths and distortions. Before I take on those however, I’m trying to start with one doctrinal issue about which I suspect I can get her to acknowledge that her position is illogical. That is whether or not divorce and remarriage are sinful. (Her church makes a big deal of helping Catholics remarry without the bother of annulment.)
So, what I would like to do is copy in my last email to her and ask you, my knowledgeable and articulate friends at CAF, to critique it, identify the weaknesses in my reasoning and approach, and give me feedback that will help me further engage with her. Here we go:
===============
Hello again, Donna. Thank you for writing. I have been traveling and then in the thick of budget planning (I run a non-profit health care corporation) so I haven’t been looking at my personal email until now. Phew! Hundreds of emails.
I would like to respond to many of the points you make, and show you how they are mistaken, but not all in one long email. If you will allow, in one or more later notes I will address them, or some of them anyway as I have the time and energy to do.
First, though, I would like to ask you to straighten me out on something - the question I asked at the end of my last note to you, about remarriage after divorce. Life will be so much easier for me if your position (that divorce and remarriage are not sinful) is correct. I am not divorced and remarried, but I know so many people who are and I worry about them. My position on it is a matter of logic, and less about theology and least of all about what the Catholic Church says. So what I would like to do is put my position in the form of a logical syllogism and ask you to show me how I am wrong.
Here it is:
Premise 1: God has the authority to determine what constitutes sinful conduct, including in such matters as divorce and remarriage, and no human being or group of human beings has the authority to determine otherwise.
Premise 2: Jesus is God, and in all four gospels he clearly and unequivocally condemned divorce and remarriage as gravely sinful.
Conclusion: Therefore, no one, including my Catholic Church or your Orthodox Catholic Church, has the authority to determine that divorce and remarriage are not gravely sinful.
That’s it. Perhaps the terms I’m using are ambiguous in some way, or perhaps one or both of the premises are false in a way not obvious to me, or perhaps the reasoning is fallacious in some way.
I imagine that as a bishop responsible for the safety of souls, you have thought this serious matter through. You will be doing me a Christian charity by correcting me.
Thanks, Donna, I look forward to your (name removed by moderator)ut. If you don’t get to it for several days, have a great week!
Tom
======================
Now, Friends, I know she isn’t really a priest or bishop; that’s a subject I wish to challenge her on once I establish credibility on couple of less personal doctrinal issues. The important thing is she thinks she’s a validly ordained priest and bishop, so I won’t challenge her on that for now. Likewise, there are probably other technical matters (the place of annulment, the liceity of Catholics attempting marriage outside of the Church, the authority of the Catholic Church, etc) that aren’t central to my argument so I have ignored them for now. Point is, I’m trying to meet her where she is, so you don’t need to comment on those aspects for me.
But if you see some important factual error on my part that has an impact on the logic, or if you see a problem with the logic itself, that’s really what I want your feedback on. Also, if you have ideas about various ways she might answer and then what my responses could be, that would be great.
Many thanks!