Divorce and the Greek-Orthodox

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Or maybe they would be grateful for the honesty and petition their government.
 
dvdjs said:
The point of the quotes around Russia is that reach back as you are doing with others, into Rus’. Catholics have the same antiquity as others.

I think that there have been and still are some Polish and German catholic communities, not to mention Lithuanian and Ukrainian (GC) communities of Rus’.
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I assume these are your examples… The Polish Catholic Communities didn’t come into Russia until the Partitioning of Poland. If you can show where some were I’ll be open to it.

There were German Protestant Communities, that can not be denied (Peter I was sadly a closet Lutheran). I’m once more unaware of German Catholic Communities. The Teutonic Order’s influence ended in what is now Estonia. Certainly they invaded the Rus, harried them, and otherwise made life miserable while they were still trying to get out from under the yoke of the Mongols, but they never (to my knowledge) established themselves in Russia.

It occurred to me as I wrote that that you might have been referring to the Germans in central Asia. Those are a very recent development (WWII) and from what I understand are not expected to survive much longer - immigration back to Germany being the route most want to take.
As to “traditional” - this are no simple objective criteria behind this. I think that Catholics are out simply because they have been seen over their centuries there as foreign and as an enemy. I suppose that it is great social progress that Jews have emerged from this category and apparently are now considered Russian.
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Islam has also been a traditional enemy, yet they are included. Your belief that it is out of some sort of hatred of Catholics would seem unwarranted.

Finally doing a little research, what I’ve found is the law simply acknowledges the contribution of those select faiths to Russian history. It is in the preamble to the law granting religious freedom, and as such doesn’t actually do anything at all.
 
Nine_Two said:
I assume these are your examples… The Polish Catholic Communities didn’t come into Russia until the Partitioning of Poland. If you can show where some were I’ll be open to it.
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The initial question is how to define “Russia” over a time frame that embraces 'traditional, historical". If one adopts a minimal view of lands at each given moment controlled by Moscow that includes a lot of Poles for a lot of Russian history. If you consider a milenium of history of lands that are seen in some cultural way as Russian - say regions that are the current canonical territory of the ROC (apart from MP parishes scattered here and there) it 's even more.

In addition to Catholics who turned Prostestant in the Baltics (and Prussia), Volga Germans included catholic communities.
Islam has also been a traditional enemy, yet they are included. Your belief that it is out of some sort of hatred of Catholics would seem unwarranted.
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As were Jews, who are also included. So what is your point?
Finally doing a little research, what I’ve found is the law simply acknowledges the contribution of those select faiths to Russian history. It is in the preamble to the law granting religious freedom, and as such doesn’t actually do anything at all.
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It grants a privileged position to those religions that has the effect of insulting them to some degree from the harassment that others are subject to. The current posture pays homage to historical enmities rather than moving forward and allowing the same human dignity of freedom of religion for all of the people living in what is now Russia. It should have been left in the past.
 
And that is why I said “maybe”, i.e., it was neither “massively condescending and/or arrogant standpoint”, i.e., I was attempting to bring YOU back to reality by stating that one can neither assume that they will be insulted either (because that’s how you would feel).
 
dvdjs said:
It grants a privileged position to those religions that has the effect of insulting them to some degree from the harassment that others are subject to. The current posture pays homage to historical enmities rather than moving forward and allowing the same human dignity of freedom of religion for all of the people living in what is now Russia. It should have been left in the past.
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Please quote the relevant passages (English translation) and explain how it does this if it is not immediately apparent.

Because all I can find are references to a preamble that acknowledges them as playing a traditional role in Russia.
 
I dare you to go to a Canadian forum, insult Canada, and see if you still stand by that statement. 😃

We aren’t as bad as Americans can be, Canadians won’t tell you we’re the best, but many will wave the flag in your face if you suggest we aren’t.

As to Russians, that has been my experience as well. They’ll put minimal effort into defending themselves before just dismissing the person making the argument wholesale.
 
I do see that from time to time from some American posters :D, but most I think put their “catholicity” first. As a Canadian, I’ve noticed that some of my compatriots look down their noses at Americans, and seem to think anything European is the next best thing to sliced bread. The Canadians that do this are usually left-leaning.
Russians really could not care less what our opinions are here and they are quite right not to, the Russian constitution is written for Russians and not Canadians, Americans, Irish or other nations outside the Russian Federation.
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I don’t think that’s necessarily the right attitude to have because that kind of insulates them from any possible objective criticism (especially when I feel that they are involving themselves in other countries’ affairs), i.e., I am not advocating changing their policies at the whim of the global community per se, but not to forego it altogether.

p.s. How do you feel about Ireland being part of the European Union?
 
Nine_Two said:
I dare you to go to a Canadian forum, insult Canada, and see if you still stand by that statement. 😃

We aren’t as bad as Americans can be, Canadians won’t tell you we’re the best, but many will wave the flag in your face if you suggest we aren’t.
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:yeah_me:
 
I am not sure when this became a thread about “interference from other nations” into Russian affairs. I don’t think anyone proposed such interference or addressed the nation of Russia. The issue was that caught my attention was the excuses being offered, or even out right denials, of the infringement of religious liberty contemporary and historic Russia. Even though that reversion back to Czarist (in not Soviet) “symphony” is having a corrosive effect even against Orthodoxy, as summarized in the sober observations of Met Hilarion, posted above. Or this reported by Dreher:
… I’ve thought about my Russian Orthodox theologian friend in Russia, who has been telling me for a couple of years now that the Church’s close relationship with the Russian State is ravaging the Church’s soul. He tells me that we American Orthodox are too naive about the rebirth of Christianity in his country. Yes, it’s happening, and thank God for it, but the way it’s happening is coming at a high cost to the Church’s moral integrity. Or so he says. A Russian Orthodox émigré friend emphatically agrees, telling me that America, for all its problems, is a far, far better place to be a practicing Orthodox Christian. I confess that having grown up in a country in which the State and the Church(es) are constitutionally separated, it is hard for me to understand in detail what they mean, but I take their word for it.
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Nine_Two said:
Please quote the relevant passages (English translation) and explain how it does this if it is not immediately apparent.

Because all I can find are references to a preamble that acknowledges them as playing a traditional role in Russia.
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I have not yet found documentation that in Russia, as for example, in Serbia, that the traditional designation confers automatic entry in the Register of Churches and Religious Communities. But given the harrassment of non-traditional groups this is not unlikely. However, it I concede that the distinction may not be statutory but a de facto one that influences how laws on registration, activity reporting, and extremism laws are applied.

The more I read, however, I am inclined to agree that, whatever the point of the preamble, it may have little meaning outside of privileging the ROC: it certainly has not precluded the use of “extremism” laws to infringe, even at the level of religious publications, on the religious liberties of Muslims - although this been more notorious in the case of other, non-traditional religions.
 
dvdjs said:
I am not sure when this became a thread about “interference from other nations” into Russian affairs. I don’t think anyone proposed such interference or addressed the nation of Russia. The issue was that caught my attention was the excuses being offered, or even out right denials, of the infringement of religious liberty contemporary and historic Russia. Even though that reversion back to Czarist (in not Soviet) “symphony” is having a corrosive effect even against Orthodoxy, as summarized in the sober observations of Met Hilarion, posted above.
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Agreed.
 
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