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momor
Guest
WOW! Great advice. I love the turn of phrase you used.
The only thing I would add is to end the status quo in love not anger.
- Status
The only thing I would add is to end the status quo in love not anger.
G
GerardMajella
Guest
If he has repeatedly broken his vows, then I would think that would lead to the question of whether the marriage is truly a marriage in the first place.
If he doesn’t take his vows seriously, then I would guess, surmise, speculate that you would have reasonable grounds for an annulment. Again, my best advice is to seek the counsel of a qualified priest.
Breaking vows is a very, very serious matter. No one should have to live with a marriage partner that egregiously violates marriage vows on a regular basis. There may be no other options but divorce, especially if he is unwilling to change his ways after counseling.
Personally, if my wife cheated on me, I would immediately separate from her. Divorce papers would soon follow, unless a serious reconciliation and atonement would be forthcoming. Even then, it would still be exceptionally difficult to forgive the breaking of our marriage vows.
If he doesn’t take his vows seriously, then I would guess, surmise, speculate that you would have reasonable grounds for an annulment. Again, my best advice is to seek the counsel of a qualified priest.
Breaking vows is a very, very serious matter. No one should have to live with a marriage partner that egregiously violates marriage vows on a regular basis. There may be no other options but divorce, especially if he is unwilling to change his ways after counseling.
Personally, if my wife cheated on me, I would immediately separate from her. Divorce papers would soon follow, unless a serious reconciliation and atonement would be forthcoming. Even then, it would still be exceptionally difficult to forgive the breaking of our marriage vows.
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gretahope
Guest
Tuescat, you have written my story. As I read I am thinking through my own struggles. There are some really good posts in reply (IMO, except for the "it’s your job to get him to heaven
) For that one, I say "the husband will stand before God on his own, not behind his wife!)Yet, there is an aspect I’m finding in all of my drama and heartache here, and that is I have found that I married (27 yrs ago!) someone that is not at all in reality who I thought he was. I am finding that he is so much more incapable than I ever imagined. He “seemed” so strong and sure early on, but now I see the light. His body now is breaking down, and he simply cannot do for himself. I am facing a situation for the rest of my married life of essentially having a 4th child. (I have 3 children) Long story…but we’ve been “married singles” for all those years. I looked for the stability I never had growing up, and married his family…a very close-knit family, enabling family with an alcoholic smack in the middle. I have abuse/neglect in my background. I found similar drama in it that drew me in, but also close family I never had. Yet lots of pure enabling, no-boundaries kind of living. We moved away long time ago!
I so see what you’re saying…but simply consistently doing the same things and expecting things to change isn’t going to work. Yes, continue to pray…but also change your perspective somehow to see that it’s God’s job (not yours) to move things forward in the right direction. Your husband must not need intimacy. I understand totally, as for the first 25 yrs of my marriage my husband all but ignored me. It’s called abandonment…and I would call that serious. But it’s only been the last few months, that I have found strength through a group I attend that is helping me to focus on myself and not being an enabler of someone who is sinning in his lack of caring. It’s even in the Bible…look at Abigail in the OT. There will be breakthrough one way or the other if you cling to God. Either he’ll give you the peace and grace to hang on and find all your joy elsewhere, and you and H will simply be “partners” or there will be some piece to the puzzle that will fall into place. Question is: how long?
The marriage I have is SO not what I want, but I have prayed HARD that whatever is best for eternity for us ALL—that’s what I want.Yes, my kids see and know that what they’re seeing is not correct. Yet I do talk to them, and I pray for their future spouses. Believe me, I grew up with parents who were 2 singles, and believe me, it was plain weird
Pray desperately for God to help you, give you a dividing line for what’s OK and what’s NOT. definintely empathize and will pray for you:hug1:
O
onmyknees
Guest
Hi, Tuescat,
Code:
I have some of the same problems with my dh. He is a good man and he does share his load of the work. But he can never open up to me about his feelings or communicate. He only speaks when necessary. I too long for that closeness, affection and knowing him intimately (I don't mean sexual relations). This is not a problem. I get really down at times because we have been married since we were 18 for 32 years now. I always try( lovingly) to get him to open up asking him for the intimacy that I need but it never has worked. I feel like I am talking to the wall. We also have very different interests. So it's like we live separate lives during the day. I'm involved in ministries at Church and he doesn't go to church. I also just get fed up at trying to keep us doing things together. I always have to initiate any activities that we can do together. If I did not suggest things I don't know if we would ever go out together.It sounds like you have already done a wonderful job of being the good example to your family. I will pray for your marriage. God bless!
P
puzzleannie
Guest
I didn’t suggest you have not been doing all you can and should do, but I am suggesting you do it all with a change in attitude. Do yourself a favor and reread all you have posted and analyze your own feelings of bitterness as they come across to outsiders reading this. Read it as if you don’t know the person who is posting what you said, and think about what you would tell her.
Your husband did not ask us for advice, so we have not offered any. Repeat after 20 years he is not going to change without some motivation from within. Your task is to decide how you are going to act and react in your own best interests, and most of all in the best interests of your children. The accusations and condemnations you have read into my kindly meant advice as a much older, much longer married woman, and that of others whom you aske for help are simply not there, but something you are reading into our responses through the lens of your own feelings. Please read them again in a different spirit and hopefully you will find something to help you.
We will be praying for you, as advice, despite asking for it, you clearly do not want.
L
lovemyboys
Guest
I might get slammed on here for recommending a book written by a Fundamentalist Christian, but I’d recommend the book Created to be his Helpmeet by Debi Pearl. It takes everything the Bible says about marriage and explains it fully-- very old school, but the old-fashioned advice has made my marriage wonderful (for both me and my dh).
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Miss_Linda
Guest
Tuescat, I will be praying for you and your husband and family. You might not have known this, but yesterday (July 6) was the Feast of St. Godelieva. She suffered terrible persecution from her husband and family. She was ignored, then imprisoned and finally martyred at the hands of her husband’s servants. She remained faithful and pious throughout her terrible persecutions and trials. Have you considered seeking her intercession? I’m sure if you read about her life you would find much inspiration and encouragement there. She is such a perfect model for the constancy of a suffering spouse.
The indifference you are suffering from your husband is quite an allegory of the indifference we offer to God. God wishes fervent love and devotion from us, but receives only lukewarm responses.
I would encourage your to read the book of Hosea in the Old Testament. God asked the prophet Hosea to take a harlot for his wife so that his marriage would serve as an allegory of God’s faithfulness to an unfaithful Church. The lifelong devotion, piety and fidelity you show to your husband can become a beautiful symbol of the faithfulness that God shows to an ambivalent Church. “Come, let us return to the Lord; for it is He Who has torn, and He will heal us; He has struck down, and He will bind us up. After two days He will revive us; on the third day He will raise us up, that we may live before Him. Let us know, let us press on to know the Lord; His appearing is as sure as the dawn” (Hosea 6:1-3).
The indifference you are suffering from your husband is quite an allegory of the indifference we offer to God. God wishes fervent love and devotion from us, but receives only lukewarm responses.
I would encourage your to read the book of Hosea in the Old Testament. God asked the prophet Hosea to take a harlot for his wife so that his marriage would serve as an allegory of God’s faithfulness to an unfaithful Church. The lifelong devotion, piety and fidelity you show to your husband can become a beautiful symbol of the faithfulness that God shows to an ambivalent Church. “Come, let us return to the Lord; for it is He Who has torn, and He will heal us; He has struck down, and He will bind us up. After two days He will revive us; on the third day He will raise us up, that we may live before Him. Let us know, let us press on to know the Lord; His appearing is as sure as the dawn” (Hosea 6:1-3).
E
EasterJoy
Guest
Debi Pearl does not have a husband who won’t pitch in with the chores. According to reviews on Amazon.com, in this book the author also blames Bathsheba for David’s sin, claiming that she ought to have been more discrete! Hello? This is not somebody whose Biblical exegesis I would put full trust in, even if she were the Pope’s twin sister.
If our OP has any responsibility as a “helpmeet”, it is more along the lines of what the Prophet Nathan had to say to David, and not anything to do with Bathsheba. If you want to take the analogy along those lines, telling the truth to the man in the home and convicting him of abuse of his position doesn’t make him less the “king”. That is an appropriate place for even the most old-fashioned of women.
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EasterJoy
Guest
OP: It just occurred to me that you and your husband may be interpreting his behavior in extremely different terms. Have you heard of a book entitled “The 5 Love Languages” by Gary Chapman? It might help you to identify and explain what it is you’re missing and what you want done about it. The thing is, I think your husband does love you. I don’t think you really doubt that. That doesn’t mean he doesn’t need to learn to show it in a way that seems that way to you.
For instance, you may very well interpret not seeing the help you need as unloving behavior. “If he loved me, he’d see I need help.” This is not wrong, but it is not a universal interpretation. As it turns out, people have different things that they consider loving behavior. For some people, “not telling her what to do” or “letting her have the house her way” is loving behavior. “Making sure she never has to worry about money and never looking at another woman” is the ultimate measure for some. Also, if a person is not getting the thing they most associate with love, it will change their entire interpretation of their situation. For instance, if a woman is given words of appreciation and encouragement or if she’s given hugs and gratutious physical affection that aren’t asking for something in return, this can put other actions and even faults in an entirely different light. If she’s not getting that, her husband’s other faults may be that more irritating.
The whole burden doesn’t fall on you to just take what he’s serving up, but you might be able to explain it to him so he’ll finally get the picture. He is going to resist making changes if he thinks they will not satisfy you, but will only make you want more. If he feels he has a chance of success, getting him on board will be easier. If he thinks you won’t be happy until he is as much of a household go-getter as you are…well, that isn’t even realistic. “Why even try?” may unconsciously have him dragging his feet.
I will tell you, as a person who doesn’t just “see what needs to be done”, that you are probably going to have a life-long issue with him on this. It is very unlikely that he’s going to look at a room or your house and see what you see needs doing, or that he’s going to feel the same urgency about it as you do. That doesn’t mean there can’t be improvement that makes you both happier.
If you want his participation on the garage, for instance, tell him you need him for two Saturdays of full vacation days to get it done, and get on his calendar to do it with you. Expect you are going to have to give him jobs and directions while it is getting done, and that you’re going to have to figure out how to direct him without becoming the parent or the slavedriver. As in: “Well, the first thing we need to do here is A and B. Do you want to do A, or do you want to do B? Or what do you think?” Or, “We have these three jobs that need to be done, X, Y, and Z. What day works for you as a work day on that, and how do you think we should split those jobs up between you, me, and the kids?”
My grandmother used to hate doing dishes. My grandfather hated milking the cow. She milked the cow. He stayed in the house and made the kids do the dishes. She got back in, and the kitchen was clean. She did not care how he got it done. It worked out pretty well. My husband folds towels “the wrong way”…meaning, they don’t look as neat or sit on the shelf the way I’d like them to. Well, seeing the towels done his way is the price I pay for not having to fold them. Living with adults is like that…you have to give up some of the control if you don’t want to do all the work yourself.
You also might try the FlyLady’s web site, or her book “Sink Reflections”. She is the one who gets homemakers who have your husband’s problem into habits that will get the work done. That might be your answer. For instance, she proposes keeping the bathroom clean every day by what she calls “swish and swipe”. The idea is that a bathroom that is given 5 minutes attention every day will never need heavy scrubbing. If your husband learned “swish and swipe” as something he gave one bathroom in the morning and one bathroom in the evening, you might never have to clean a bathroom again. Or he might learn her habit that the first thing you do when you walk into the kitchen in the morning is to empty the dishwasher. Or that every morning, first thing, he transfers the wet laundry you put into the washer the night before into the dryer, then takes it out before he leaves for work and folds it. This is how someone like him is going to manage doing housework, though. He is never, ever going to be like you.
The FlyLady’s theory is that even a housework-handicapped person can get a habit by doing it every day for a month. In other words, you might have to remind him for ten days and watch him for another month, but after that, your chances are pretty good that you can consider that job done.
Good luck!
For instance, you may very well interpret not seeing the help you need as unloving behavior. “If he loved me, he’d see I need help.” This is not wrong, but it is not a universal interpretation. As it turns out, people have different things that they consider loving behavior. For some people, “not telling her what to do” or “letting her have the house her way” is loving behavior. “Making sure she never has to worry about money and never looking at another woman” is the ultimate measure for some. Also, if a person is not getting the thing they most associate with love, it will change their entire interpretation of their situation. For instance, if a woman is given words of appreciation and encouragement or if she’s given hugs and gratutious physical affection that aren’t asking for something in return, this can put other actions and even faults in an entirely different light. If she’s not getting that, her husband’s other faults may be that more irritating.
The whole burden doesn’t fall on you to just take what he’s serving up, but you might be able to explain it to him so he’ll finally get the picture. He is going to resist making changes if he thinks they will not satisfy you, but will only make you want more. If he feels he has a chance of success, getting him on board will be easier. If he thinks you won’t be happy until he is as much of a household go-getter as you are…well, that isn’t even realistic. “Why even try?” may unconsciously have him dragging his feet.
I will tell you, as a person who doesn’t just “see what needs to be done”, that you are probably going to have a life-long issue with him on this. It is very unlikely that he’s going to look at a room or your house and see what you see needs doing, or that he’s going to feel the same urgency about it as you do. That doesn’t mean there can’t be improvement that makes you both happier.
If you want his participation on the garage, for instance, tell him you need him for two Saturdays of full vacation days to get it done, and get on his calendar to do it with you. Expect you are going to have to give him jobs and directions while it is getting done, and that you’re going to have to figure out how to direct him without becoming the parent or the slavedriver. As in: “Well, the first thing we need to do here is A and B. Do you want to do A, or do you want to do B? Or what do you think?” Or, “We have these three jobs that need to be done, X, Y, and Z. What day works for you as a work day on that, and how do you think we should split those jobs up between you, me, and the kids?”
My grandmother used to hate doing dishes. My grandfather hated milking the cow. She milked the cow. He stayed in the house and made the kids do the dishes. She got back in, and the kitchen was clean. She did not care how he got it done. It worked out pretty well. My husband folds towels “the wrong way”…meaning, they don’t look as neat or sit on the shelf the way I’d like them to. Well, seeing the towels done his way is the price I pay for not having to fold them. Living with adults is like that…you have to give up some of the control if you don’t want to do all the work yourself.
You also might try the FlyLady’s web site, or her book “Sink Reflections”. She is the one who gets homemakers who have your husband’s problem into habits that will get the work done. That might be your answer. For instance, she proposes keeping the bathroom clean every day by what she calls “swish and swipe”. The idea is that a bathroom that is given 5 minutes attention every day will never need heavy scrubbing. If your husband learned “swish and swipe” as something he gave one bathroom in the morning and one bathroom in the evening, you might never have to clean a bathroom again. Or he might learn her habit that the first thing you do when you walk into the kitchen in the morning is to empty the dishwasher. Or that every morning, first thing, he transfers the wet laundry you put into the washer the night before into the dryer, then takes it out before he leaves for work and folds it. This is how someone like him is going to manage doing housework, though. He is never, ever going to be like you.
The FlyLady’s theory is that even a housework-handicapped person can get a habit by doing it every day for a month. In other words, you might have to remind him for ten days and watch him for another month, but after that, your chances are pretty good that you can consider that job done.
Good luck!
G
gretahope
Guest
OOOHHH…be VERY careful about this book. Yes, it’s extremely old school, and unless you have Debi P"s husband, it doesn’t work out perfectly like Debi Pearl says it will. If you don’t have a husband who is the ultimate breadwinner, protector, leader-type: LOOK OUT. If you have a husband who would just as soon let you as the wife be the decision -maker, disciplinarian, “mom of him”—it will not work…b/c essentially you will end up doing it ALL. I speak from experience. I read it. Tried it. And it put all the burden on me. He was happy b/c he sat there and let me do it all!
G
gretahope
Guest
I agree totally! Again, there is Abigail in the OT, who essentially knew her husband would do the wrong thing, that it would cause death and destruction…SO SHE took action and saved lives. She is noted for her wisdom.
In my marriage there have been many times I felt prompted to NOT do as my husband said…I tho took advice from the “submit at all costs” women in my church. I paid dearly for not listening to God’s promptings, let me tell you! David commended Abigail and married her. It’s not so cut and dry, as the Pearls say it is.
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gretahope
Guest
I may or may not speak for others in loveless marriages…but from your Elder Forum status you must know something. I’d like to hear about the fruit in your own life from whence you speak. IE, since you have practiced the things you are telling us to do, and we want to have hope that our situations will improve if we follow your advice…please tell us that your marriage is thriving and that your own children are thriving…please
Otherwise, it seems that from the tone of your postings you have a need to “put us in our place” and some of your postings feel like alcohol on a wound. Please tell us what you’re saying works and you have wonderful fruit in your own life to show for it.
T
tuescat
Guest
I did reread my posts. I hear a sad and hurt wife who is on the brink of utter desolation and loneliness. Any bitterness heard is perhaps emanating from the readers’ inner voice.
It is only through the blessed sacraments of Eucharist and Reconciliation and the intercession of the BVM, St. Monica, and prayers of my friends that I am not bitter. Yet. I do remain human and incapable of living my entire life without doubts, failings, and sadness.
If I were able to fall at the feet of my beloved Savior and cry my pain out to Him, I do not ever think His only advice would be to “bear my cross.” I have never gotten that message in Adoration. Yet, all the priests and spiritual advisors and elders I’ve sought out have repeated that party line to me with the caveat, YOU CAN NEVER REMARRY! I have no desire to remarry. I have never spoken of remarriage. At this point, we are, as Easterjoy said, married singles. We are married, all right, on paper. Is that how Christ intends for my husband to fulfill his marriage covenant with me?
The only responsibility I have for his soul is the same as I have for anyone: to lead by my faith and works.
Thank you for the encouraging posts and for sharing that some of you also feel yourselves in the same situation. Thank you for hearing my pain and not assuming anything about me. I read about Abigail this morning, and yes, she’s my kind of girl. As much as I love and admire St Therese, I don’t identify with her. Her path is not the only one to Heaven.
I know about Retrouville. I haven’t thought we could do it because if we “fail”, we would have to divorce. But, I think it is time. There is never going to be a good time. I want him to see that the difficult times (which we have had far more than our fair share of) are made easier by a loving marriage.
Again, thank you for the prayers. Thank you for the new direction. Thank you for believing that I am trying as hard as I can. He is the “one” for me. I could never give my heart to anyone
else.
For all of you who have a similar situation, you’ll be with me tonight in Adoration.
It is only through the blessed sacraments of Eucharist and Reconciliation and the intercession of the BVM, St. Monica, and prayers of my friends that I am not bitter. Yet. I do remain human and incapable of living my entire life without doubts, failings, and sadness.
If I were able to fall at the feet of my beloved Savior and cry my pain out to Him, I do not ever think His only advice would be to “bear my cross.” I have never gotten that message in Adoration. Yet, all the priests and spiritual advisors and elders I’ve sought out have repeated that party line to me with the caveat, YOU CAN NEVER REMARRY! I have no desire to remarry. I have never spoken of remarriage. At this point, we are, as Easterjoy said, married singles. We are married, all right, on paper. Is that how Christ intends for my husband to fulfill his marriage covenant with me?
The only responsibility I have for his soul is the same as I have for anyone: to lead by my faith and works.
Thank you for the encouraging posts and for sharing that some of you also feel yourselves in the same situation. Thank you for hearing my pain and not assuming anything about me. I read about Abigail this morning, and yes, she’s my kind of girl. As much as I love and admire St Therese, I don’t identify with her. Her path is not the only one to Heaven.
I know about Retrouville. I haven’t thought we could do it because if we “fail”, we would have to divorce. But, I think it is time. There is never going to be a good time. I want him to see that the difficult times (which we have had far more than our fair share of) are made easier by a loving marriage.
Again, thank you for the prayers. Thank you for the new direction. Thank you for believing that I am trying as hard as I can. He is the “one” for me. I could never give my heart to anyone
else.
For all of you who have a similar situation, you’ll be with me tonight in Adoration.
M
momor
Guest
I truly wish you could find a compassionate priest to talk to who knows something about Church annulments. Someone who could hear your experience and tell you if it sounds like it meets the criteria for annulment. That doesn’t mean you have to go through with one but it might give you some helpful knowledge upon which to make a decision about your future.
G
gretahope
Guest
Tuescat:
My post was intended for Puzzleannie:blush: I hope you didn’t think it was for you.
I have and will continue to pray for you. In the end it truly is God who will direct…but there is also the need for wise counsel, as you have sought here. Please post again to this thread, as it may help others.
My post was intended for Puzzleannie:blush: I hope you didn’t think it was for you.
I have and will continue to pray for you. In the end it truly is God who will direct…but there is also the need for wise counsel, as you have sought here. Please post again to this thread, as it may help others.
C
Crash001
Guest
I’m not hearing anything serious that can’t be fixed, so hang in there, but…
You seem like you have a level head on your shoulders and need to communicate your needs more directly to your husband, including the seriousness of the situation.
As a man, you need to look inward as well and see what you are/are not bringing to the table that got you to where you are today. You can immediately start making improvements and suggest paths for both of you to improve on.
You might commit to having one meeting with a priest or commit to evening walks to talk things over. Keep it cordial, start small, and keep tempers in check.
Enjoy the small improvements.
Good luck.
You seem like you have a level head on your shoulders and need to communicate your needs more directly to your husband, including the seriousness of the situation.
As a man, you need to look inward as well and see what you are/are not bringing to the table that got you to where you are today. You can immediately start making improvements and suggest paths for both of you to improve on.
You might commit to having one meeting with a priest or commit to evening walks to talk things over. Keep it cordial, start small, and keep tempers in check.
Enjoy the small improvements.
Good luck.
O
Ogo_nwa_maria
Guest
I know what you are going through and I also understand if a lot of people don’t. Truth is its easier for people to say what they say cause they really haven’t been there and no one can really understand what you are going through. I totally understand and identify with you.
My advice which I give myself is, there is nothing too big for God that He cannot do.
Learn to communicate even though it seems so hard
Ensure that whatever happen you don’t lose you self esteem
Let God fill your void
You don’t need to divorce him, let God take control
God bless you
My advice which I give myself is, there is nothing too big for God that He cannot do.
Learn to communicate even though it seems so hard
Ensure that whatever happen you don’t lose you self esteem
Let God fill your void
You don’t need to divorce him, let God take control
God bless you
1
19rebecca84
Guest
I feel for you. I am not married, but currently in a relationship with a man who sounds similar. He expects me to give my all and do it 'lovingly and sweetly", but he does not give all of himself to me. I’m still waiting for the day where he will hold my hand, or wake me up with kisses…or, kiss me, to be honest.
You wanted true love, but instead you are in a solid marriage with, as you say, a good man.
I wouldn’t divorce, but perhaps you can begin sleeping in a seperate room so you don’t have that disappointment of going to bed lonely, even though you are with someone.
Go on vacations, focus on yourself more, as you say you want to. You know you volunteer a lot of your time because it keeps you busy and unavailable to connect with him. Cut back on some of that and take up things you enjoy. perhaps when he sees you loving your life, he might want to partake in that and it could wind up bringing you closer.
You wanted true love, but instead you are in a solid marriage with, as you say, a good man.
I wouldn’t divorce, but perhaps you can begin sleeping in a seperate room so you don’t have that disappointment of going to bed lonely, even though you are with someone.
Go on vacations, focus on yourself more, as you say you want to. You know you volunteer a lot of your time because it keeps you busy and unavailable to connect with him. Cut back on some of that and take up things you enjoy. perhaps when he sees you loving your life, he might want to partake in that and it could wind up bringing you closer.
- Status