C
Call_Me_V
Guest
Not trying to start a big debate or anything, just an honest question, according to Catholic teaching, do animals have free will, or is it only humans? State your source please.
Thanks,
V
Thanks,
V
- Status
R
Rascalking
Guest
In my opinion, as an animal nut, I don’t think they have free will. For example-
When an bear in the wild sees another animal weak or sick, it will go for the kill-it’s just food. It can’t make another choice, if it walked by, than it wouldn’t count as a moral action, we would just say “that bear isn’t hungry at the moment”
Now, that doesn’t mean that animals don’t have a soul (they do) it doesn’t mean that they don’t take part in the after life ( I firmly believe they do) .
Just my 29 cents.
When an bear in the wild sees another animal weak or sick, it will go for the kill-it’s just food. It can’t make another choice, if it walked by, than it wouldn’t count as a moral action, we would just say “that bear isn’t hungry at the moment”
Now, that doesn’t mean that animals don’t have a soul (they do) it doesn’t mean that they don’t take part in the after life ( I firmly believe they do) .
Just my 29 cents.
D
Della
Guest
Animals do not make moral choices, which is what we mean by free will. They act on instinct, not on whether or not they should or shouldn’t do/say/think something. This is why they are called innocent. They cannot decide whether or not they will serve God, for instance. Just their being what God made them is serving him. The Genesis account tells us that only human beings were given any command by God requiring they make a moral decision, therefore only human beings could decide whether to obey God’s command or not. We’re speaking here about physical beings, not the angelic spirits who also had free will when they were created.
S
slywakka250
Guest
i’d say probably not.
If they did, animals would have the same type of moral responsibility man has. I haven’t studied animals much, but from what i’ve seen they don’t seem to have the same dynamic of choices that we have. They seem to more follow instincts without further reflection.
If they did, animals would have the same type of moral responsibility man has. I haven’t studied animals much, but from what i’ve seen they don’t seem to have the same dynamic of choices that we have. They seem to more follow instincts without further reflection.
C
Call_Me_V
Guest
Thanks for the responses guys, does anyone have a quote from the Catechism, etc. that confirms that what you say is Church teaching?
Thanks,
V
Thanks,
V
W
Will_B
Guest
Again, just a personal opinion… Not sure what the church teaches, or even if it does.
Animals have instinct… Some may appear to have free will, but they do as God commended…
Apes may appear to have free will, however they were given a bit more creativity when mimicking humans.
Dogs and horses have the instinctive ability to obey human commands.
Since they don’t have free will, if animals have an after life, they go to heaven… Like the movie “All Dogs Go To Heaven”
Animals have instinct… Some may appear to have free will, but they do as God commended…
Apes may appear to have free will, however they were given a bit more creativity when mimicking humans.
Dogs and horses have the instinctive ability to obey human commands.
Since they don’t have free will, if animals have an after life, they go to heaven… Like the movie “All Dogs Go To Heaven”
D
Della
Guest
From the Catechism:
The Catechism doesn’t address animal free will. Why not? Because as beings not gifted with what is described above, it does not apply to them. The Church doesn’t always state in positive terms things that aren’t it’s concern. Animal culpability isn’t the concern of the Church since it’s not commissioned to preach the Gospel to them, only to human beings. It’s simply not a matter of faith and morals. The treatment of animals is a moral question, though.
However, here are a couple of articles on the topic for you to read:Instinct, Free Will from the online 1917 Catholic Encyclopedia.
C
Call_Me_V
Guest
That’s probably the best answer that I’m going to get, I guess the Church hasn’t really addressed it. Thanks for your help
V
D
Della
Guest
You’re welcome. A lot of people think the Church speaks on every issue, but it simply doesn’t. It wasn’t commissioned to do so.That’s probably the best answer that I’m going to get, I guess the Church hasn’t really addressed it. Thanks for your help
V
A
Ace_of_Spades
Guest
You should check out Mortimer J Adler’s book “Ten Philosophical Mistake”.That’s probably the best answer that I’m going to get, I guess the Church hasn’t really addressed it. Thanks for your help
V
The answer is no they don’t but he puts it into a phiosophical context.
D
Della
Guest
It occurred to me to ask you, Call Me V, why you wanted to know what the Church teaches about animal free will. Call me slow in the uptake, I just hit me that you must have had a reason for asking.
C
Call_Me_V
Guest
A Protestant argued for the existence of free will, using this argument.It occurred to me to ask you, Call Me V, why you wanted to know what the Church teaches about animal free will. Call me slow in the uptake, I just hit me that you must have had a reason for asking.
At any particular moment, all of the necessary conditions to move my arm are all there. And yet, my arm isn’t necessarily moving. Therefore, human actions can’t simply be the result of physical causes (since if it was, my arm would be moving constantly, since all of the physical conditions for moving my arm would already be satisfied). Therefore, the movement of my arm requires an act of will, proving that humans have free will.
The objection that sprang to my mind was that animals also already have all of the necessary conditions for their limbs to move, and yet their limbs aren’t constantly moving either. But since he didn’t believe that animals have free will, that argument couldn’t be used to justify a belief in human free will (since if it was a legit argument, we would be required to believe that animals have free will as well). But then I realized that even though, when I was Catholic, I saw free will as a purely human thing, I had never bothered to look up the position of the Church on whether or not animals have free will. My objection only holds water against someone who does not believe that animals have free will, and so I realized that I needed to figure out whether or not the Church taught that animals have free will before I could determine if my objection was valid.
It doesn’t matter against this particular guy, since, like I said, he was Protestant, but I still decided to try and figure out what the Church’s teaching was on the matter.
Thanks again for your help,
V
D
Della
Guest
I see. That’s not quite the same thing as the freedom to decide if one ought to do/say/believe, etc. as the definition of free will. Having the freedom to move limbs is purely a physical function that could be limited by injury, disease or deformity. It doesn’t require moral free will.
I cite your Nietzsche quote as evidence of this physical limitation of free will of both kinds. The person who is seriously mentally disturbed may have lost one or both. Moral free will–culpability–is determined by the ability of the person to make decisions with a sane mind. Therefore, those who are not sane are not as culpable as those who are. That’s the only way in which faith matters in the case of insanity, that I know of.
M
MoleDownunder
Guest
I think animals don’t have free will but do feel emotions like love for there owner. Humans were born sinners and when the bible tells the story about the forbidden fruit and the serpent it shows how humans have free will and can choose not to serve God and humans are also very intelligent but maybe that comes with free will. If free will doesn’t exist which makes a lot of sense then maybe the more intelligent the more free will you have because you have more options of your actions but you are influenced anyway.
DID YOU KNOW trainers have taught animals like gorillas how to communicate to animals with sign language but not one animal has ever asked a question… Scientists think this is because animals do no have awareness of other beings, this is same with children under three years old. If you tell a child under three years old that there were two people, Suzzie and Bob. Bob has a cookie and Suzzie knows this. Suzzie goes into another room for one minute. Bob puts the cookie into a box while Suzzie is in the other room. Suzzie returns, here is the question, where will Suzzie look when she wants the cookie? Children under three years old will say in the box.
Here’s another interesting fact. A bunch of apes were shown a box, a trainer pushed buttons and levers even though it won’t do anything and takes food out of the box from a dark hole. The ape does the same movements and receives food. This was also tested with children and they had the same result. Then the apes were shown the same box but it was transparent, the trainer did the moves but this time the ape took the food straight away. The child however did the movements and scientists think this is because children learn from adults/parents so they copy what they do only because they think if the adult did it this way this must be the right way to do it.
DID YOU KNOW trainers have taught animals like gorillas how to communicate to animals with sign language but not one animal has ever asked a question… Scientists think this is because animals do no have awareness of other beings, this is same with children under three years old. If you tell a child under three years old that there were two people, Suzzie and Bob. Bob has a cookie and Suzzie knows this. Suzzie goes into another room for one minute. Bob puts the cookie into a box while Suzzie is in the other room. Suzzie returns, here is the question, where will Suzzie look when she wants the cookie? Children under three years old will say in the box.
Here’s another interesting fact. A bunch of apes were shown a box, a trainer pushed buttons and levers even though it won’t do anything and takes food out of the box from a dark hole. The ape does the same movements and receives food. This was also tested with children and they had the same result. Then the apes were shown the same box but it was transparent, the trainer did the moves but this time the ape took the food straight away. The child however did the movements and scientists think this is because children learn from adults/parents so they copy what they do only because they think if the adult did it this way this must be the right way to do it.
- MoleDownunder
- Status