Do Animals Have Immaterial Souls?

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My first premise is; I believe in the immaterial soul.
My second premise; although i believe that physical objects accompany or allow human-awareness( E.g, we need and depend on a fully funtioning brain to think), I do not believe that self awareness is ultimately the property and produce of atoms.

My problem, is that certain animals, such as dolphines and monkeys (not sure which type), are said to be capable of very basic abstract thinking. That might not be true according to some of you; but i have observed the behavior of cats and dogs and they appear to be “self-aware”. It cannot be simply described as random goings on in the brain or some biological software program which was brought together by accident; now running its coarse through-out the lives of every species. Some animals appear to have fun and play.

Conclusion; If we are to believe in the immaterial soul at all, we either have to redifine it as something which relates only to our relationship with God and not Our “selfawareness”. Making the mind a purley physical reality. Or, we ought to think that certain types of complex organism, although they do not have a “rational soul”, have a immaterial soul, like us.

Any comments, disagreements or wisdom?
 
I am not sure I understand what a ‘soul’ is exactly.
The term used by the Church ‘form of the body’ still escapes me…

God bless
 
Hi Mind,

From my experience, and from all that I have read of the literature, animals other than human are not self aware. It is true that dolphin, chimps, and even parrots are capable of behavior which could be perceived as abstract in some way. We don’t actually know if they are thinking abstractly, but it is possible that, given the right preconditions, some seem to be doing something like that. Maybe, maybe not. The data is not in completely, and won’t be for some time. We still have much to learn about thinking before we can judge. And anyway, if they are capable of abstraction at some rudimentary level in some instances, given certain very measured conditions, so what? A complicated brain does not make a soul. God does, at His will.

God Bless

Jon Winterburn
 
I am not sure I understand what a ‘soul’ is exactly.
The term used by the Church ‘form of the body’ still escapes me…

The way I see it is that it is a spiritual entity routed in the human heart. I think it is what we feel as ‘state/feeling/climate’ in our heart. what we may call the ‘invisible’ heart within the heart of the flesh.

To me it appears to me that the human heart is a sort of sanctuary and human life depends on the condition of this sanctuary. For example states like joy, depression, fear, anxiety are like ‘climates’ in the heart and determines the condition of the whole body. Wether we feel energetic or not, or motivated, etc…

For example when we say a ‘pure heart’ this means a heart which is clean full of the forces of the Holy Spirit, and the soul is really ‘alive’. Nothing can get it down.

On the other hand when we have a ‘broken heart’, we also have a sort of broken body, it is as if they have been an earthquake in the heart and everything is upside down. And somehow things have to be put back in order.

It seems that what happens in the heart determines the functionality of the whole body, including the ‘flesh’ heart and the brain. It seems that the soul is the entity which lives in the heart the same way man live on a planet and is connected to it fondamentally.

Now, about animals, I hear people talking about a ‘depressed’ dog or cat. Does a dog have this spirituall entity which lives in its heart? I think it is possible.

But does an immaterial soul mean rational soul?
Can we ask an animal for an advice for example or a suggestion?

God bless
 
JonW said:
Hi Mind,

And anyway, if they are capable of abstraction at some rudimentary level in some instances, given certain very measured conditions, so what? A complicated brain does not make a soul. God does, at His will.

God Bless

Jon Winterburn
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The church says they don’t have an immaterial soul. I’m just wondering what the Pope would say if it was latter found out that they did.
 
nablaise said:
The way I see it is that it is a spiritual entity routed in the human heart. I think it is what we feel as ‘state/feeling/climate’ in our heart. what we may call the ‘invisible’ heart within the heart of the flesh.
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You gave a nice discription; i think this is a part of it.

I believe that the “human-will” is immaterial, and that this “will” becomes a concious and fully experiencing state of mind through the various mechanisms of the physical brain. I stand by this notion, simply because i don’t believe that atoms have dreams, and that there are energy particles out there that have “ideas” in them. But how those thoughts and ideas are processed and ordered in terms of perceiving physical reality and the arrow of time, has certainly got alot to do with the physical brain. That i can’t deny.

In theory, i think everything has an immaterial nature behind them so far as they have an “idea” or “form” behind them which physical reality actualises and works in relation to. These ideas or forms, are expressions of Gods creative mind, just like an idea is a free expression of ours.
 
I thought I would add this,

The famous studies accomplished by Wolfgang Kohler in the Canary Islands clearly demonstrated the use of rational cunning and conjugated actions by superior monkeys. Among the countless observations led by this scientist, there is one that, not only due to its humorous aspect, but also because of the existence of a definite abstract component in the process, deserves to be mentioned here. It has to do with the malicious and wicked attitude practiced by two male chimpanzees against a chicken: one of the monkeys presents a food to the fowl, encouraging it to approach. As soon as the chicken gets close enough, the other chimpanzee hits the fowl with a wire that he had maintained hidden behind his back. The chicken retreats but soon falls again in the trap, since its mind is not capable to establish association between the offer of food and the following blow. And the game goes on and on, until the monkeys, possibly tired of their joke, move away from the stupid gallinaceous. The abstract component is denounced by the evident forethought of an elaborated conspiracy, executed, in an united action, by the two chimpanzees.

http://www.cerebromente.org.br/n12/opiniao/pensamento_i.htm

any thoughts?
 
Thomistic Philosophy, in Metaphysics, teaches that only man has an rational and immortal soul. As the soul is immortal, this bespeaks spirituality. As the soul is the principle of life, that which is non human, be it plant or animal also has a soul as its principle of life. That soul is irrational and mortal and ceases to exist at the time of death By the fact that the soul is mortal, it bespeaks of materiality. Yet in all of our alleged wisdom, man has not identified nor isolated the principle of life.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed b.
 
Deacon_Ed_B said:
By the fact that the soul is mortal, it bespeaks of materiality. Deacon Ed b.
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The question is, is the mind material? If not, how do we understand creatures who appear to have personal minds?

Aquiness, though i have emense respect for him, is not the be-all-and-end-all of christian theology and philosophy. It is possible that he was mistaken. There is a temptation to think that, though a mind is given by God, the rational mind is a gradual manifestation, developed through the process of evolution. However, this idea does do damage to the dignity of a human being. One might make the horrid claim that the less inteligent a person is, the less of a human being that person is; And that only the highest intelects are worthy of human dignity.

I could be wrong. It could be that some animals have natural programs that mearly make them appear as if they have minds. No different from when we create machines that have the apperence of a rational response to outside stimuli; except the program came about randomly (its possible, if we consider the organisational skills of, let say, “Ants”. The highly organised and ordered way in which these creatures act, you could be fooled in to thinking that they were rational, but its differcult to think that they might actually have minds!!!. In reality, there behavior is an accident). In theory, i could be nothing but a highly complex machine, with predifined response mechanisms which deal with deep philosophical issues on the internet; and yet, have no rational awareness or mind at all.

Given that, maybe Aquiness is right.
 
While it is required belief that animals don’t have an IMMORTAL (eternal) soul as we do, since they aren’t created in God’s image and likeness as we are, doesn’t mean they dont have any other kind of soul, depending on your definition of ‘soul’. 🙂

For me, ‘soul’ simply means that which makes a living being alive - ie rocks and snow don’t have souls, but plants and animals do. Some definitions, eg Merriam-Webster dictionary, give some support for this definition, others might not.

Hope that’s clear as mud for ya 🙂
 
MindOverMatter said:
. In theory, i could be nothing but a highly complex machine, with predifined response mechanisms which deal with deep philosophical issues on the internet; and yet, have no rational awareness or mind at all.

Given that, maybe Aquiness is right.
Click to expand...
If that is what you want to believe, go right ahead. That would do two things. It would make you wrong, and make Aquinas correct.

Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
 
LilyM said:
While it is required belief that animals don’t have an IMMORTAL (eternal) soul as we do, since they aren’t created in God’s image and likeness as we are, doesn’t mean they dont have any other kind of soul, depending on your definition of ‘soul’. 🙂

For me, ‘soul’ simply means that which makes a living being alive - ie rocks and snow don’t have souls, but plants and animals do. Some definitions, eg Merriam-Webster dictionary, give some support for this definition, others might not.

Hope that’s clear as mud for ya 🙂
Click to expand...
Lily, you just paraphrased what I said in post 10. What mind over matter quoted was my statement on the mortal, irrational soul of plants and animals as the principle of life. Not human. Humans have an immortal, rational soul, made in the image of God.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
 
Deacon_Ed_B said:
Lily, you just paraphrased what I said in post 10. What mind over matter quoted was my statement on the mortal, irrational soul of plants and animals as the principle of life. Not human. Humans have an immortal, rational soul, made in the image of God.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
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My apologies, didn’t even see your post there :tiphat: S’pose it’s a case of ‘great minds think alike’ 🙂
 
Personally I don’t think there is any good evidence to support the notion we have an immortal ‘soul.’ The soul (whether rational or intellective) has been used in different and complex ways to try and explain certain properties of human nature and mind, especially in relation to time, self-identity, cognition and knowledge. Certainly some philosophers who attributed or examined what they thought was the ‘soul’ still have much relevance to current problems relating to the philosophy of mind, and also metaphysical problems like how we experience time.

Even so, the cognition of animals and humans has a simpler explanation; the activity of the brain and nervous system combined with sense experience. Postulating a ‘ghost in the machine’ doesn’t explain much, even if a purely materialist approach can’t explain everything in relation to cognition and conciousness.

Also, postulating a soul raises difficult questions. Where does the soul come from? Is it created or uncreated? What is its nature, function, and powers? How does the soul relate to the body? Is the mind a power or part of the soul?
 
I note yur profile states you are agnostic. That answers your post perfectly.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
 
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