Do Catholics need further "evangelising"?

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Vic_Taltrees_UK

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Do people who’ve been through the sausage machine, gone through the hoops, conformed to the pattern need further “evangelising”? Or is it stretching the definition?

Should we really “exhort”, “urge”, “encourage” (i.e put new “heart” in) each other at all or is it nobody’s business? In the end is this actually the same as “evangelising”?

How much are we supposed to talk to each other about how Holy Spirit power and the indwelling Christ has helped us in (not even out of) complicated situations (I’m mainly not talking about casuistic-type moral dilemmas - I’m talking about a big fix) on bad days with difficult circumstances? Is this the same as what is sometimes called “testimony” or “witness”?

Can we do this without relating? Are we able to do this if we mustn’t have friends at church? (Couples have a live-in friend incidentally.)

Have some of us had Holy Spirit power and the indwelling Christ explained to us as to what they look like when they are happening as opposed to the “glossy brochure wording”? Do we need them explained to us?
 
Supplementary questions:

Is there such a thing as “adult faith”? Where is one supposed to get it from especially if one is an outsider?

Is “faith” supposed to be “existential”? What was it like to be Abraham or Jacob? Were these two more mixed up than us or less so? Did God change their material circumstances for the better and worse or was the whole goings-on solely moralistic?

The phrase “faith formation” is occasionally used but does it mean anything?

Does “catechesis” mean something other than getting one “ready” for the forms of sacraments usually when one is too young to understand them?

Do any of these terms overlap with or coordinate with the sense of “evangelisation”?

Can one be catechised in order to evangelise others or be evangelised in order to catechise others?

Does empathy play any role and how do we acquire that?

Has interceding both solitary and together got anything to do with any of these things? (Couples have a live-in person to intercede “together” with, incidentally.)

We mustn’t forget that those most in need of the Gospel are on the one hand unsuitable people, people outside the “catchment” or “target” population, people with the wrong body language, and at the same time those whom we have kidded - and about whom we have kidded ourselves - that they have already received everything there was ever going to be to receive from God.

There have been too many depressing and demoralising rows about all of these things. It has all got not only me but lots of other people down.

The glossy brochure wordings don’t tell me enough. I need to hear “blood and guts”.

Does it all really do - in bad circumstances - what it says on the tin? What’s supposed to happen when you are several miles from a church building and it’s several hours from opening time and you gave all the stray, unused rosaries away years ago and can’t count and pray at the same time ANYWAY?

Is my fellow Christian any use to me and can I be of use to them?

Many posts in forums like this may give the impression of us being rich in placing ourselves under rules (however good in themselves) and poor in the power to fulfil them amply.
 
Vic_Taltrees_UK said:
Supplementary questions:

Is there such a thing as “adult faith”? Where is one supposed to get it from especially if one is an outsider?

Is “faith” supposed to be “existential”? What was it like to be Abraham or Jacob? Were these two more mixed up than us or less so? Did God change their material circumstances for the better and worse or was the whole goings-on solely moralistic?

The phrase “faith formation” is occasionally used but does it mean anything?

Does “catechesis” mean something other than getting one “ready” for the forms of sacraments usually when one is too young to understand them?

Do any of these terms overlap with or coordinate with the sense of “evangelisation”?

Can one be catechised in order to evangelise others or be evangelised in order to catechise others?

Does empathy play any role and how do we acquire that?

Has interceding both solitary and together got anything to do with any of these things? (Couples have a live-in person to intercede “together” with, incidentally.)

We mustn’t forget that those most in need of the Gospel are on the one hand unsuitable people, people outside the “catchment” or “target” population, people with the wrong body language, and at the same time those whom we have kidded - and about whom we have kidded ourselves - that they have already received everything there was ever going to be to receive from God.

There have been too many depressing and demoralising rows about all of these things. It has all got not only me but lots of other people down.

The glossy brochure wordings don’t tell me enough. I need to hear “blood and guts”.

Does it all really do - in bad circumstances - what it says on the tin? What’s supposed to happen when you are several miles from a church building and it’s several hours from opening time and you gave all the stray, unused rosaries away years ago and can’t count and pray at the same time ANYWAY?

Is my fellow Christian any use to me and can I be of use to them?

Many posts in forums like this may give the impression of us being rich in placing ourselves under rules (however good in themselves) and poor in the power to fulfil them amply.
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Wow Vic Taltrees, let me go get a cup of coffee and my reading glasses!

I think you’ve got, like, 10 threads in there!

Too much to get into. I’ll just say that the new evagelization is directed toward persons who are already catholic but don’t know their faith.

Evangelization in general, just means to bring someone to know the Lord by witnessing and testimony.

We don’t need to evangelize to each other to give each other support. You don’t evangelize to someone who already knows their faith. Of course, many catholics don’t and so the New Evangelization.

That’s why I love CAF, you get to read posts from people who really know the bible, the CCC, their faith, etc. Don’t meet too many people like this in church; unfortunately. Church should do more teaching.

Adult faith. Now that’s of interest to me. Too many people stop at the milk phase and never get to the solid meat of christianity. They’re too happy with just going to church and care nothing about knowing their faith or being able to explain it to anyone. Whether you’re an outsider or an insider you get meat from the same place: The bible, The CCC, reading books, learning. You never know enough. The more you learn, the less you know. Mere Chrisitanity, Death on a Friday Afternoon, Who Moved the Stone - the list is endless. Scott Hahn books.

Also, adult faith is living the faith you profess. Not going to Mass, put that one hour aside for God, and then live the rest of the week like He doesn’t exist.

Check out these bible verses. You could find information on them online - it’s too much to get into.

1 Corinthians 3:12
Hebrews 5:12
1 Peter 2:1-3

It’ll be interesting to see what others post. I think you’ve put too much meat on the plate!

Fran
 
Vic_Taltrees_UK said:
Do people who’ve been through the sausage machine, gone through the hoops, conformed to the pattern need further “evangelising”? Or is it stretching the definition?
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If all someone has of their faith is a “sausage machine,” “hoops,” and “conformed to the pattern,” they have never been evangelized. So yes, this is the type of person who definitely needs it. Hopefully they can be brought forward to a point where they actually have a relationship with God and the Church.
 
I think of evangelization as a lifelong process. There’s an initial evangelization of hearing and accepting the Good News, but it’s like marriage I think: you “get married,” but that’s the merest beginning.
 
Re Catechesis & Evangelization-

I’m a catechist, I catechize. That is, I teach faith knowledge to kids. But in that same classroom when I connect that knowledge to how I live my own life, why faith changes my life, and why I believe the kids should have faith change their lives too, that’s evangelization.
 
kkollwitz said:
Re Catechesis & Evangelization-

I’m a catechist, I catechize. That is, I teach faith knowledge to kids. But in that same classroom when I connect that knowledge to how I live my own life, why faith changes my life, and why I believe the kids should have faith change their lives too, that’s evangelization.
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Ditto here except I had to quit last year.

If you’re not living your faith you’re not even supposed to be a catechist; I used to like to make the kids understadn that catechism is different from religion. They get religion here too which I’m not too happy about but I’m not in charge.

It’s like what St. Francis said:

Always evangelize and when absolutely necessary use words.

If you take the word evangelize to mean to preach the gospel, then I guess it all could be evangelizing. Even the Sunday homily could be evangelizing.

How it’s used today is understood as to convert someone to christianity, to evangelize and make them know the good news that Jesus died for them so they could get to heaven-that’s how I used to explain it to the kids. Make them know God, not know about God.

But then once one is evangelized, they need to learn their faith and be catechiized. And how about the New Evangelization? I think it’s kind of sad that it’s necessary to evangelize to our own! But that’s how it is. And it’s right. Many in church don’t even believe and I often wonder why they go - but it’s good that they do. Never know when they’ll hear the magic words.

Also, you need to be thanked for your work. We are so often overlooked or not appreciated. Some mothers thought it was a bother to even bring their child. Not only do you have to know some theology and the christian faith, prayers all the sacraments, etc. but you have to know how to handle kids and problems too!

So, this is for you and all catichists: :clapping:

Fran
 
According to the National Directory for Catechesis, evangelization should precede catechesis. Technically, catechesis is for those who have already dropped their nets and made the decision to follow Christ.

Many Catholics are sacramentalized but not evangelized. Baptism places within us the capacity for faith, but not actual faith. We must cooperate with God’s grace; it’s not automatic.

And it is a lifetime endeavor. Sadly, many stop after Confirmation, thinking they know all they need to know. If you stop filling your tool box when you’re 14, when you get to be 25, you’re going to be dealing with adult issues but you’ll have the tools of a 14 yr old.

So, yes, we all need evangelizing! Use the name of Jesus, talk about how God has worked in your life, share your testimony, ask other people about theirs. Protestants are really good at this. Why can’t we be??
 
KCT said:
According to the National Directory for Catechesis, evangelization should precede catechesis. Technically, catechesis is for those who have already dropped their nets and made the decision to follow Christ.

Many Catholics are sacramentalized but not evangelized. Baptism places within us the capacity for faith, but not actual faith. We must cooperate with God’s grace; it’s not automatic.

And it is a lifetime endeavor. Sadly, many stop after Confirmation, thinking they know all they need to know. If you stop filling your tool box when you’re 14, when you get to be 25, you’re going to be dealing with adult issues but you’ll have the tools of a 14 yr old.

So, yes, we all need evangelizing! Use the name of Jesus, talk about how God has worked in your life, share your testimony, ask other people about theirs. Protestants are really good at this. Why can’t we be??
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Hello KCT

You’re right in all you say, of course.

Vic Taltrees asks a chicken and egg question on his OP. Does one get catechised in order to evangelize or does one get evangelized in order to catechise others?

Of course it’s the first one. How can you evangelize if you don’t know your religion??

Protestants are really good at this because they’re taught their religion. Catholics aren’t. People here on CAF have an incredible amount of knowledge re their faith. I mean, some sound like philosophers or theologians.

Unfortunately, the reason I joined here is because I have difficulty finding anyone I could speak to about religion and I don’t think I even know that much! So, yes, the church has really failed us in this way and I’ve been saying this for the last 40 years.

That small amount of bible reading at Mass, which is then not even explained, is just not enough. We just recently started using the bible. My aunt thought I had become a JW when she saw me reading it years ago.

I also like very much what you said about how we have to accept grace and put it into action after baptism and confirmation. Some kids think you GET the Holy Spirit, as if it were majic or something. Then they FEEL no change and they get confused. I believe confirmation should be only for adult catholics who understand what they’re doing; and you don’t at the age of 12/13.

So, yes, you end up an adult with the knowledge of a 13 year old.

I’m glad you posted. 🙂

Fran
 
I am so sad that so many others are also so sad about the same things as me. I’ve been hearing all these things for a very long time and they are so decried. I thought I must be going mad. I was confirmed at 9 and had half a dozen 40 minute sessions. Both my old and present dioceses told me explicitly they had nothing more for me until my present journey of faith. Meantime there was mob rule with its various spin-offs.

Does this mean “existential faith” is the same as accepting graces from God and living them out? Is it possible across and outside of nuclear families, e.g to the single?

Can I cross check that the views of my old friends on Bible interpretation are shared by more people in the Church or should I just carry on interpreting it the way I think I remember?
 
Vic_Taltrees_UK said:
I am so sad that so many others are also so sad about the same things as me. I’ve been hearing all these things for a very long time and they are so decried. I thought I must be going mad. I was confirmed at 9 and had half a dozen 40 minute sessions. Both my old and present dioceses told me explicitly they had nothing more for me until my present journey of faith. Meantime there was mob rule with its various spin-offs.

Does this mean “existential faith” is the same as accepting graces from God and living them out? Is it possible across and outside of nuclear families, e.g to the single?

Can I cross check that the views of my old friends on Bible interpretation are shared by more people in the Church or should I just carry on interpreting it the way I think I remember?
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Hi Vic,

You’ve sent me running to Professor Google! I’ve never heard of exestential faith. This is the most I found that made sense to me. Is this what you mean?:

“Existential theology is a recognition that real faith and spiritual meaning cannot be found in organized religions, rituals, or texts. Adhering to religious rules, even those called “laws” within a religion, is not a sign of true faith. Existential theology demands that faith be individual. Because most people are born into a religion, they do not have a faith so much as a sense of community identity. The religion is a way to connect to other people, not a way to connect directly to the metaphysical. This does not mean that every person born into a religion lacks faith, but few people are genuinely spiritual.”

I agree with the above. Many people go to church and yet have no faith. They go because it’s a habit or they see their friends or it seems like a nice moral thing to do.

This is how I like to explain it: Religion is a doing. Christianity is a being. I don’t mean a human being or Jesus; I mean a state of being. Being in communion with God, seeking to do your best to follow Jesus, praying, seeking to know Him. I used to tell my catechism kids that the difference between religion (which is taught here - not too happy about that) and catechism is that one teaches you about God and the other teaches you to know God.

So yeah, we could go to Mass, say a rosary every day, do novenas, fast and who knows what else, but that doesn’t mean we’re close to God.

James refers to this. Faith is a gift, it is not earned, it’s free for acceptance. However, once you believe in God (a Faith belief) then works follow. Works would be all those things I mentioned above, plus helping others, being nice to all, doing all those good things we christians are supposed to do - if we can. However, these works cannot save you - only faith in God can save you.

You bring up a very good point. So I guess the answer would be Yes. Accepting God’s grace and living out your faith is “existential faith”. Of course this is applied to singles. Why wouldn’t it be? We’re all living out our lives in whatever situation we happen to be in. Why would it apply only to nuclear families? In fact, I’d say a single person is even more free to serve. Before I go to a meeting or bible study or whatever, I always have to make sure first that I CAN go; sometimes I can’t. It seems to me a single person can do what he wants to without having to ask permission!

Regarding your last pp. Very important, and this goes back to something I said re faith and knowledge having to grow. Sorry. I mean that faith could remain as small as a mustard seed and God is still happy; but the knowledge you have of your faith should grow. You shouldn’t rely on what you knew as a 13 year old. I’m not sure I understand what you mean by “cross checking” but I do know that you need to start all over again and really understand christian concepts.

How many times have I said that reading all these saints could be confusing. Some day someone is going to kick me off CAF! I think you should read the whole entire N:T: slowly and with purpose and see what you come up with. And then study it in a bible study or with a good commentary; you could use google too (some stuff on there is weird though) but use google after you have a foundation. Then you need to get into the OT too. Hope you’ve done this.

How about doing a study on the covenants? What a difference that would make to your understanding everything!

As usual, I’ve said too much.

Fran
P.S. This doesn’t mean that I don’t believe you shouldn’t be involved in a church! That’s very important. You should go to a church you like and feel comfortable in and see if they have bible studies there, or another group you could benefit from.
 
frangiuliano115 said:
Hi Vic,

… so much as a sense of community identity. The religion is a way to connect to other people …

Or isn’t, as the case may be.

… follow Jesus, praying, seeking to know Him.

I see this done less and less, even among Protestants.

… In fact, I’d say a single person is even more free to serve. … It seems to me a single person can do what he wants to without having to ask permission!

Not easy for an Asperger who hasn’t been to the old school and isn’t of the ethnic target group.

… You shouldn’t rely on what you knew as a 13 year old.

Or 9 year old after only six 40-minute sessions.

I’m not sure I understand what you mean by “cross checking” but I do know that you need to start all over again and really understand christian concepts.

**I have joined journey of faith but I don’t yet know whether any relationships will come out of it. Shall try and rely on commentary sites (see below). Same applies to your last point at the bottom of this. ***

… I think you should read the whole entire N:T: slowly and with purpose and see what you come up with. And then study it in a bible study or with a good commentary; you could use google too (some stuff on there is weird though) but use google after you have a foundation. Then you need to get into the OT too. Hope you’ve done this.

How about doing a study on the covenants? What a difference that would make to your understanding everything!

Am going to ask about commentary sites in a new thread. Thank you for suggesting it.

… be involved in a church! That’s very important. You should go to a church you like and feel comfortable in and see if they have bible studies there, or another group you could benefit from.

*As at .
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Hi Vic,

Yeah. Life isn’t easy. I understand better what you were getting at in your O.P.

It’s late here and I really have to go. Will check in tomorrow morning.
(I think we’re in the same time zone).

Fran
 
"…we hear the cry of the Apostle to the Gentiles resounding with special urgency: “Woe to me if I do not preach the Gospel!” (1 Cor 9: 16); a cry that becomes for every Christian a pressing invitation to serve Christ. “The harvest is plentiful” (Mt 9: 37) the Divine Teacher still repeats today: so many still do not know him and are awaiting the first proclamation of his Gospel;

others, although they received a Christian formation, have become less enthusiastic and retain only a superficial contact with God’s Word; yet others have drifted away from the practice of the faith and need a new evangelization.

Then there are plenty of people of right understanding who ask themselves essential questions about the meaning of life and death, questions to which only Christ can give satisfactory answers. It is, therefore, becoming indispensable for Christians on every continent to be ready to reply to those who ask them to account for the hope that is in them (cf. 1 Pt 3: 15), joyfully proclaiming the Word of God and living the Gospel without compromise."

Homily Pope Benedict XVI 5 Oct 2008
 
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Vic_Taltrees_UK:
Good morning Vic,

I reread your OP and understand in a different way now.

Of course Christians are supposed to encourage each other, even Paul said so. We’re supposed to encourage each other as brothers in a family. The problem is that most people don’t like to talk about God - not even church people. Especially here in Europe - I find that it is really not done. Of course Christians should be of good use to you. Look at this thread…All the nice replies you’ve received. People that love Jesus are the same all over the world! What a great network we belong to!

I think it’s a good idea that you joined that group. You never know when you’ll find someone you could hook up with. Having aspergers doesn’t make it easy, does it? We have a DDNOS in our family so I understand very well.

About the ethnic target group - every group is targeted by God! A “real” Christian should not even notice this - whatever that group might be. Besides faith, which I spoke about in my earlier post, there SHOULD also be a community feeling. But, alas, many times this is missing. What to do? Keep living your life, be nice to everyone (as I think you are) and be in as many groups as possible. Keep your eyes on Jesus and see about buying a commentary. A very beautiful commentary is Mathew Henry. He’s an older writer, I think from the 800’s but very spiritual and makes for very edifying reading. I think you would like it.

No Christian is an outsider Vic. You belong to the big family of Christ. Don’t worry about empathy or anything else. Just keep learning. God loves you whether you know little or a lot, but learning is a good thing to do.

Read the CCC too but only in conjunction with the bible. Read the NT first. Let God speak to you as you read.

Sorry I carried on so.

Fran
 
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