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themaccauk
Guest
Thanks for the insight. It’s hard to get around it when nearly all churches speak about idoltry of the statues and Mary but i accept what you are all saying.
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pablope
Guest
Then I would suggest that you sift through the material being given you…investigate for yourself.
And do as Matt did…I’ve been investigating the Catholic Church for a month and a half now, and coming from a Mainline Protestant background the parallels between idolatry and the use of icons was something that proved uncomfortable for me too, until I learned the theology behind the practice.
Secondly…why don’t you bring some of that material here so that we can examine it. I bet they get it out of websites that sprout countless venom against the CC.
J
JRKH
Guest
Yes - it can be hard to “get around” when you have heard it so much. That is why we are so impressed and happy that you wish to let the Church speak for herself instead of just taking the word of others who have and spread these misconceptions.
Peace
James
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themaccauk
Guest
I’m researching form these sites
newadvent.org
thecatholictreasurechest.com
apologeticspress.org
I used to be a JW and stopped going to any church about 3 years ago. But i continued studying researching many things. It really only came to me this morning when i woke upp to research the Catholic Church. I can see that i had many misconceptions and ideas. I think there are only a couple of things that would stumble me. One being the Papacy the other praying to Mary. But i will keep on and i certianly do not reject the church.
newadvent.org
thecatholictreasurechest.com
apologeticspress.org
I used to be a JW and stopped going to any church about 3 years ago. But i continued studying researching many things. It really only came to me this morning when i woke upp to research the Catholic Church. I can see that i had many misconceptions and ideas. I think there are only a couple of things that would stumble me. One being the Papacy the other praying to Mary. But i will keep on and i certianly do not reject the church.
M
MattofTexas
Guest
With regard to the Papacy, there are some good articles on here and I would also recommend Upon this Rock by Stephen Ray. Also take a look at some of the writings of John Henry Cardinal Newman such as his essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine. With regard to Mary, I would simply state that both the Catholic and Orthodox churches venerate her very highly and she is called Theotokos (literally God-bearer) or Mother of God in both the eastern and western traditions. Veneration of the Blessed Virgin can easily be traced back to before the 5th century in the writings of the Church Fathers and the following prayer is taken from the Sub Tuum Praesidium dating back to 250 AD/CE:
God bless,
Matt
By 250 AD/CE Christians were already seeking Mary’s intercession and recognizing her as having a special role if not earlier! Take this for what you will, but I think the evidence speaks clearly: there is good reason to believe that the historical orthodox Christian faith does indeed resemble that of the the contemporary Roman Catholic and/or Eastern Orthodox Churches. The question is, does the historical orthodox Christian faith represent God’s Truth better than the alternatives? Be they the Jehovah’s Witnesses, the LDS Church, Seventh Day Adventists, or the third largest “branch of orthodoxy” if you will: Protestant/Evangelical Christianity (which from a Catholic and Protestant perspective should not be grouped with these other three, but the purpose of this list is to compare truth claims and models designed to recognize and teach God’s truth)? I implore you to study the Scriptures and history and seek the Truth.
God bless,
Matt
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PaulVF
Guest
If I may interject something, we as Catholics do not pray to Mary, we ask her to pray for us. It would be no different if I asked you to pray for me.
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andrewstx
Guest
I noticed some time ago that some, a few Protestants are idol worshippers. The idol they sometimes worship is not of wood or stone, but paper and ink.
I was raised in a Protestant fundamentalist denomination that actually worshiped the bible. They sometimes confused the bible with God. The preacher in my boyhood congregation would in his sermons use the term “God said, in such and such book chapter, and verse.” The bible is not God as that man implied.
They had to have permission or an order verbatim for everything they did in church, even singing with an organ, or flowers and candles on their Lord’s Supper table.
I left that “undenominational” denomination as soon as I moved out.
The irony in it all is that they were always condemning the CC and EOC for idolatry when they were practicing idolatry them selves.
I was raised in a Protestant fundamentalist denomination that actually worshiped the bible. They sometimes confused the bible with God. The preacher in my boyhood congregation would in his sermons use the term “God said, in such and such book chapter, and verse.” The bible is not God as that man implied.
They had to have permission or an order verbatim for everything they did in church, even singing with an organ, or flowers and candles on their Lord’s Supper table.
I left that “undenominational” denomination as soon as I moved out.
The irony in it all is that they were always condemning the CC and EOC for idolatry when they were practicing idolatry them selves.
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dshix
Guest
I for some reason thought that Jon said “No, they don’t” in reply to the words “Can someone tell me the truth about this”
Had the impression he was saying that Catholics won’t tell you the truth about their idol-worshipping, but I think he may have just been replying to the title now.
J
JRKH
Guest
While I cannot personally vouch for the orthodoxy of the other sites, newadvent is a good one.
As to your stumbling blocks…
You will read many good things about prayer to Mary and the Saints. But something to keep in mind is this…Nowhere is a Catholic required, in their private prayer life, to pray to anyone but God. If you are more comfortable simply praying to the Father, that is perfectly acceptable.
As to the Papacy…let us know your particular concerns and we will try to address them.
If I may hazard a guess - you likely have an issue with " Papal infallibility". And perhaps with the centrality of “authority” that the papacy and the Magisterium imply.
Below is a reply that I recently made to another poster that you might find helpful (in addition to the good reading I am sure you are getting elsewhere).
Of course your wife is right that each of us can “think for ourselves” on issues. However, Jesus never intended for us to each act independently of each other. It is far easier for an individual to fall into error than it is for a group who are able to take various views and (with the guidance of the Holy Spirit) expose error and raise up truth.
I would ask that you read Mt 18:15-18…and consider two things.
First that where it speaks of “sin” that doctrinal error (false teaching) is a sin…and second…that there is a reason Jesus had the issue taken to the larger community and that it is “The Church” that we are to tell it to and listen to…that it is The Church that has the Christ given authority to bind and loose “whatever”. We can see this very issue played out in Acts 15 where the dispute arose within the Church over the need for Gentiles to be circumcised and obey the mosaic law.
So this speaks to the importance of thinking for ourselves but doing so within the larger spirit guided community.
As to the matter of Papal infallibility the mistake that many people make about this is that they look at it too narrowly. Teachings are not issued by the Holy Father in vacuum. Matters are discussed, prayed over, debated, researched, drafted, prayed over, reviewed, modified, corrected and prayed over some more before they are ever issued as a teaching.
Each new teaching on faith and morals must be consistent with past teaching and for this reason the Holy Father seeks (name removed by moderator)ut from the wider magisterium so that -as I described above - error is rooted out and truth raised up.
I hope that this is of some help.
Peace
James
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MattofTexas
Guest
How do you ask Mary to pray for you? By praying? Therefore yes, Catholics do pray to Mary and the saints, the difference being that what you pray for is for them to pray…most of the time. There are situations in which Catholics do pray to saints to ask them for specific favors, yes?
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Michael_Francis
Guest
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/corona_stellarum/Smilies/Off-Topic--Alert.gif
Please remain on topic.
The intercession of saints is not related to the issue of images.
Please remain on topic.
The intercession of saints is not related to the issue of images.
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themaccauk
Guest
Dont the scriptures say there is only one intercessor and that was Jesus who is a high priest in heaven. Pleading for us on our behalf
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EricFilmer
Guest
If you think about it, many Protestants have statues of Jesus, Mary, Joseph and angels in their own homes. After all, this is true of anyone who owns a nativity set. Of course, they use those statues as reminders of aspects of their Christian spirituality and faith history as opposed to using them as objects of idolatrous worship. That mirrors the mentality of Catholics concerning the statues in our churches.
You are correct, and Catholics believe this as well, but this really needs to be a separate thread topic, as Michael Francis has indicated. Please start a new discussion on the topic of the intercession of the saints and we will explain how it is in keeping with the biblical teachings concerning the intercession of Christ.
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themaccauk
Guest
I dotn get it. I been a follower of the way for a long time. I have no statues, no church.no teacher I thought walking inSPiirt and Truth means you hav eno need of visible representations of anything pertaining to God. My authority is the Holy SPiirt and my beleif is that the true churhc is one not made by human hands. Jesus is my mediator who stands as the high priest in heaven, interceding on our behalf. My teacher is the Holy SPirit. Its hard ofr me torecognise anythign you are saying as it all looks like visible representations of the kingdom which is no part of this world
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JRKH
Guest
Yes - it can be difficult to “get it”.
Perhaps for you - walking in the Spirit of Truth - means you need no statures etc. But for others, such representations ARE helpful to them as they walk in the Spirit of Truth. Would you deny this help to them?
Jesus, in His infinite wisdom recognized how much easier it is for an individual to fall into error than it is for a group. Therefore…
Christ left us a Church to which He gave authority to “Bind and loose” - “Whatever”. He instructed us not to walk alone but to do so in community with one another. He instructed us to take issues to the Church and to Listen to the Church.(Mt 18:15-18)
He established the Church as the “Pillar and Bulwark of Truth” (1 Tim 3:15)and it is His good pleasure that His Wisdom be shown through the Church.(Eph 3: 8-12)
He prayed that we might be one as He and the Father are one.(John 17:20-21)
So - While walking int the Spirit of Truth is our goal, it is also necessary that we do so together and in unity with each other. In this way we “test the spirits” to ensure that it truly IS the Spirit of Truth that we are being led by, that we expose error and raise up Truth, and we can rightly discern that which “seems Good to the Holy Spirit” and to the Whole of the Church (Acts 15:28)
So you see…The Church leads us to Scripture, and Scripture to the Church.
Peace
James
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themaccauk
Guest
Thanks james.
Peace and Love
Peace and Love
J
JRKH
Guest
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EricFilmer
Guest
I would like to point out that the foundation of Christianity is a visible representation of God and the heavenly kingdom: The Incarnation. In Christ, transcendent divinity was made visible to us. As the Bible teaches:
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we
have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father. (John 1:14, RSV)
Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and we shall be satisfied.” Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, `Show us the Father’? (John 14:8-9, RSV)
I would also like to point out that Scripture itself is a visible representation of God and his heavenly kingdom. That’s what the written word does. Historically, statues and stained glass windows helped to teach Christianity to people who were illiterate or could not afford to have their own Bibles (and this was the reality for the majority of Christians until modern times). Whether by the person of Jesus Christ, the written word or artistic image, we rely upon visible representations of God’s revelation.
Moreover, many of the prophets experienced mystical visions of God and heaven (for example, among others this takes place with Daniel, Ezekiel, and John in Revelation). These visions involved such people seeing visible representations of divine truths, which they then visibly recorded in Scripture for the benefit of all humanity.
As humans we are both body and soul, physical and spiritual, material and immaterial. There is no reason why our Christian Faith needs to be represented exclusively in terms of the immaterial. Things of the physical order can, and do, help us to understand and appreciate things of the spiritual order.
In case you are also looking at this topic in the context of the 10 Commandments, Catholics view the commandment prohibiting the making of graven images as being a prohibition against making images and then worshiping them. This is, after all, what the full text of the Bible’s presentation of the10 Commandments states (see Exodus 20:4-5; Deuteronomy 5:8-9). Consider also the fact that after God gave the Hebrews the 10 Commandments he instructed them to make a bronze serpent (Numbers 21:8-9) as well as two golden cherubim (Exodus 25:18). Moreover, when Solomon built the temple, it was filled with graven images of both earthly and heavenly things (see 1Kings, chapter 7). In such events we see the creation of graven images as a righteous activity, which is in contrast to graven images being made in the context of idolatrous activity (for example, Nebuchadnezzar’s golden idol described in Daniel 3:1-7).
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