Do humans raised by animals have the possibility of salvation?

[DetectiveNiko]

Ok few things I want to note here ;

1. I am sorry if I have posted a similliar topic to this before regarding children that die early, its just that I have this idea in my mind that everyone having a chance between picking heaven or hell or having faith is impossible within a single lifetime, some people just don’t get the chance to live, and its been holding my faith back mostly. If I had this cleared, I could bear with other things.
2. Since humans are “social animals” we are heavily influenced by the way we were raised.
   This creates a problem
   There are theese children that menaged to survive, but were raised by animals and science has concluded that since they don’t use most parts of the brain while they are being raised, they end up being like animals, and become irrational, not being able to reason,etc.
   Are theese humans even human anymore since they can’t have faith either because they act on natural instinct ? If they aren’t wouldn’t that mean people get souls much later in their life ?
3. Now I don’t know if this whole thing is even true, since I was only told this by my sociology teacher, but she seems to be a pretty smart person. But this also kinda reminds me of the Romulus and Remus story, which I used to think was clearly blabber and people couldn’t survive living with animals.
4. Similliar quesiton could be applied to cavemen I guess

Once again, I am heavily sorry for asking this question , but I can’t shake this feeling that there is something wrong with this, and its been shaking my faith quite a bit.

 

[AveOTheotokos]

All human beings are created in the image and likeness of God. They possess an immortal rational soul and all have a possibility of salvation.

Any state of mental disability, regression, or failure of development due to physical condition, ailment, injury, or lack of socialization (such as is the case with so called “feral” children) can not change this, as it is a quality inherent in who we are.

He knows us before we were formed in the womb, and we cannot change that, whether we were socialized with animals or born with an intellectual disability that renders us incapable of rationality or reasoning.

 

[DetectiveNiko]

If he knows us all,no matter what we choose, then what would be the point of faith and reason ?
It seems very predeterimned to me if thats the way it is

 

[AveOTheotokos]

If you see a top that is spinning on a table and you see it drifting towards the edge of the table with nothing to stop it from falling off, you can reasonably be said to know that it is going to fall off of the table. Your pre-knowledge of this does not mean you are causing this to happen.

God knows every one and everything that will ever happen, good or bad, for all of time. Out of love, He allows us the free will to come to know Him through faith and reason so that we may have a free choice to choose to love Him in return.

For God to allow us to have a free choice, He restrains His own freedom and control; He allows for there to be a “not God”. He loves us so much that He withdraws inward into Himself to allow for a void, a silence, a darkness to exist where He is not. His freedom is bound so that ours is unchained.

If God were to utilize His knowledge to overwhelm our choices with His grace, or if He were to show us His full glory, our freedom would be compromised. Instead, we must come to know Him gradually through faith, reason, and trust. We must choose to love Him who is pure good, even in the face of suffering, evil, and temptation.

He knows each and every one of us and knows what we will ultimately choose before we are even created. So then why would He create someone who will eventually reject Him and embrace the evil and darkness, the “not Him”?

It is because He creates us out of love. He does not create us because He has some need from us; that our choosing Him or not choosing Him affects or changes Him in some way. Rather, He creates us because HE loves us, whether we love Him or not.

If He were to only create beings that would “choose” Him, then would there really be a choice? If His knowledge of all potential events in time caused Him to change His eternal act of willing creation, then this would violate who He is: all Loving, all Good, all Knowing, and all Powerful. If He acted in this way, it would be putting conditionality on His love; He would only create that which would reciprocate love back to Him.

This concept of God is a perversion. Rather, God creates freely and allows His creation to reject Him. He allows this because He can bring a greater good out of allowing this rejection than by preemptively negating its possibility.

For example, consider the disobedience of Adam and Eve. This resulted in a corruption of Human nature; a fracturing of our relationship with God. Our Human minds may wonder why on earth would a loving God allow humanity to fail from its very start?

But then look at what came after: the story of salvation. Through prophets, covenants, and finally the new and eternal covenant in His own beloved Son, who in the greatest possible outpouring of Love sacrificed Himself for our salvation, God brought about the greatest good possible.

 

[AveOTheotokos]

Through all of this, God showed us that true love requires sacrifice. God has to sacrifice His complete control to allow us free will. When we turned away from Him, He shows us the greatest example of love ever; to become one of us, sharing in our humanity, and suffering and dying to save us so that we may share in His divinity.

In John chapter 9, Jesus is asked why a man is blind and whether it is because of his own sin or that of his parents. Jesus answers them that it is neither his sin or his parents’ sin, but “that the works of God may be made manifest in him.”

God doesn’t want us to suffer, but He allows us to suffer because He knows that through suffering and sacrifice, we can better come to know Him and better bring Him to others.

So, despite His knowledge of all events and time, He still allows us free will and reason, and reveals Himself to us in a way that grows and is fostered through faith rather than an overwhelming, undeniable, and forcible way.

 

[DetectiveNiko]

But my question had nothing to do if God’s foreknowledge means we are predeterimned.
I understand that it doesnt need to mean that.
But, the way you put things in your original comment it seems like some people are devoid of any responsibility (of choosing, having faith,doing works,etc.)
and just get sent to heaven or hell based on what they would have done if they didn’t have those ilnessess.
Wouldn’t it be way more simple to not just have those ilnesses in the first place ?

 

[AveOTheotokos]

No, but your second question did. Your original question was regarding the possibility of salvation, not it’s certainty, so I did not address that.

We all have a possibility of salvation, including “feral” people who are raised among animals. This does not mean that we do not need to choose, have faith, manifest our faith in the form of works, etc… Only that Jesus died for all of humanity, and we all have a possibility of salvation.

Their circumstances regarding one’s intellect do not exclude them from this possibility. likewise, we who are here on earth do not know the full scope of the ways and mercy of God, so we cannot presume that those lacking the mental facilities or socialization necessary to come to a rational acceptance of Christ and His teachings are excluded by this circumstance.

 

[DetectiveNiko]

Yeah and thats where my problem lies, because I don’t see that possibility.
You can’t be forced into a relationship, but you can’t have a relationship without being a rational human either.
Just because you say they have the possibility doesn’t make it so if you don’t give me a reason or an example of that possibility (how that person can achieve salvation despite everything)
For people who have never heard the faith we could always say that their conscience helps them guide them, and for people with mental disabilities they still have faith.
But feral children, don’t have faith nor can do works outside things that are natural for animals, so I don’t see any way of them going with this whole “You have to accept God in some form salvation” thing. And as I perviously said if you don’t need to accept God wouldn’t that be same as forced into a relationship, once again going back to the question of did he have a choice to not be in the first place since those people were born that way ?

(Sorry if I sound mean, I just really want this to make sense, and so far nobody has helped me)

 

[AveOTheotokos]

Even if they were raised as an animal, they would still have a human nature. They would still have the free will to act in a selfish way or a selfless way. They would still have the ability to choose to be a good steward of nature, to act in harmony with creation.

CCC:
373 In God’s plan man and woman have the vocation of “subduing” the earth as stewards of God. This sovereignty is not to be an arbitrary and destructive domination. God calls man and woman, made in the image of the Creator “who loves everything that exists”,249 to share in his providence toward other creatures; hence their responsibility for the world God has entrusted to them.

374 The first man was not only created good, but was also established in friendship with his Creator and in harmony with himself and with the creation around him, in a state that would be surpassed only by the glory of the new creation in Christ.

We also cannot presume to know that “feral” children do not come to know God through their encounter with creation. All of humanity has a yearning to understand their own self awareness and to reconcile why they are different from the rest of creation. All of nature cries out of the Creator:

And what is this? I asked the earth; and it answered, I am not He; and whatsoever are therein made the same confession. I asked the sea and the deeps, and the creeping things that lived, and they replied, We are not your God, seek higher than we. I asked the breezy air, and the universal air with its inhabitants answered, Anaximenes was deceived, I am not God. I asked the heavens, the sun, moon, and stars: Neither, say they, are we the God whom you seek? And I answered unto all these things which stand about the door of my flesh, You have told me concerning my God, that you are not He; tell me something about Him. And with a loud voice they exclaimed, He made us!

My questioning was my gazing upon them; and their answer was their beauty.”
Augustine, Confessions Book X, Ch. 6

We cannot presume to know how one may come to know and serve God in extenuating circumstances, but what we can trust is that God is love, God is merciful, and He would never save or condemn someone against their will. We may not know the mechanism behind how this would work for those in these unique circumstances, but we do know that the possibility of salvation exists and that we are all provided grace in our lives to come to know Him.

CCC:

1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ” and through Baptism

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.

The grace of God can work in us, even if our circumstance seems to present an obstacle to this. The following may help provide more insight:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689x.htm

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm

 

[DetectiveNiko]

Well to me it seems like the original people are exaclty the ones that did in fact worship the creation, not something higher than it. They worshiped fire, wind, stars ,etc.

But what you said kinda helps clear it up atleast a bit and I am thankful for that.
But this creates another dilemma which I have asked on a previous thread and got conflicting answers to, I would like to see your opinion :
What then of the people who didn’t get to live at all, (for feral children as you said there is something that can happen) like aborted embryos . This seems to be an extreme case where the soul immidiately left the body. What should we believe in that situation

 

[AveOTheotokos]

One can never go wrong to trust in God’s mercy. This document may be of help in understanding the hope of salvation for the unborn and unbaptized infants:

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...aith_doc_20070419_un-baptised-infants_en.html

1. Nevertheless, human beings are blessed with freedom, and a free acceptance of Christ is the ordinary means of salvation; we are not saved without our acceptance and certainly not against our will. All adults either explicitly or implicitly make a decision vis‑à‑vis Christ who has united himself with them (cf. GS 22). Some modern theologians see the option for or against Christ as implicated in all choices. However, it is precisely the lack of free‑will and responsible choice on the part of infants that leads to the query as to how they stand vis‑à‑vis Christ if they die unbaptised. The fact that infants can enjoy the vision of God is recognised in the practice of baptizing infants. The traditional view is that it is only through sacramental Baptism that infants have solidarity with Christ and hence access to the vision of God. Otherwise, solidarity with Adam has priority. We may ask, however, how that view might be changed if priority were restored to our solidarity with Christ (i.e. Christ’s solidarity with us).
2. Baptism for salvation can be received either in re or in voto. It is traditionally understood that the implicit choice for Christ that adults who are not actually baptised can make constitutes a votum for Baptism and is salvific. In the traditional view, such an option is not open to infants who have not attained the use of free‑will. The supposed impossibility of Baptism in voto for infants is central to the whole question. Hence, many, many attempts have been made in modern times to explore the possibility of a votum in the case of an unbaptised infant, either a votum exercised on behalf of the infant by its parents or by the Church,[126] or perhaps a votum exercised by the infant in some way.[127] The Church has never ruled out such a solution, and attempts to get Vatican II to do so significantly failed, because of a widespread sense that investigation of this matter was still ongoing and a widespread desire to entrust such infants to the mercy of God.

 

[AveOTheotokos]

1. Within the hope that the Church bears for the whole of humanity and wants to proclaim afresh to the world of today, is there a hope for the salvation of infants who die without Baptism? We have carefully re-considered this complex question, with gratitude and respect for the responses that have been given through the history of the Church, but also with an awareness that it falls to us to give a coherent response for today. Reflecting within the one tradition of faith that unites the Church through the ages, and relying utterly on the guidance of the Holy Spirit whom Jesus promised would lead his followers “into all the truth” (Jn 16:13), we have sought to read the signs of the times and to interpret them in the light of the Gospel. Our conclusion is that the many factors that we have considered above give serious theological and liturgical grounds for hope that unbaptised infants who die will be saved and enjoy the Beatific Vision. We emphasise that these are reasons for prayerful hope, rather than grounds for sure knowledge. There is much that simply has not been revealed to us (cf. Jn 16:12). We live by faith and hope in the God of mercy and love who has been revealed to us in Christ, and the Spirit moves us to pray in constant thankfulness and joy (cf. 1 Thess 5:18).
2. What has been revealed to us is that the ordinary way of salvation is by the sacrament of Baptism. None of the above considerations should be taken as qualifying the necessity of Baptism or justifying delay in administering the sacrament.[135] Rather, as we want to reaffirm in conclusion, they provide strong grounds for hope that God will save infants when we have not been able to do for them what we would have wished to do, namely, to baptize them into the faith and life of the Church.

Be sure to check the footnotes at the bottom as well, specifically #127

 

[AveOTheotokos]

1. God is rich in mercy, dives in misericordia (Eph 2:4). The Byzantine liturgy frequently praises God’s philanthropy; God is the “lover of man”.[107]Moreover, God’s loving purpose, now revealed through the Spirit, is beyond our imagining: “what God has prepared for those who love him” is something “no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived” (1 Cor 2:9-10, quoting Is 64:4). Those who grieve over the fate of infants who die unbaptised, especially their parents, are often themselves people who love God, people whom these words should console. In particular, the following observations can be made:
2. a) God’s grace reaches all people and his providence embraces all. The Second Vatican Council teaches that God does not deny “the assistance necessary for salvation” to those who, without any fault of their own, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God, but who, with the help of grace, “strive to lead a good life”. God enlightens all people “that they may at length have life” (cf. LG 16). Again it teaches that grace is “active invisibly” in the hearts of all people of good will (GS 22). These words apply directly to those above the age of reason, who are making responsible decisions, but it is difficult to deny their applicability also to those below the age of reason. The following words, in particular, seem truly universal in their scope. “For since Christ died for all, and since all are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine [cumque vocatio hominis ultima revera una sit, scilicet divina], we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partners, in a way known to God, in the paschal mystery” (GS 22). This profound sentence of Vatican II takes us into the heart of the loving purpose of the blessed Trinity and stresses that God’s purpose exceeds our understanding.
3. b) God does not demand the impossible of us.[108] Furthermore, God’s power is not restricted to the sacraments: ‘Deus virtutem suam non alligavit sacramentis quin possit sine sacramentis effectum sacramentorum conferre’ (God did not bind His power to the sacraments, so as to be unable to bestow the sacramental effect without conferring the sacrament).[109] God can therefore give the grace of Baptism without the sacrament being conferred, and this fact should particularly be recalled when the conferring of Baptism would be impossible. The need for the sacrament is not absolute. What is absolute is humanity’s need for the Ursakrament which is Christ himself. All salvation comes from him and therefore, in some way, through the Church.[110]

 

[PJM]

I am sorry if I have posted a similliar topic to this before regarding children that die early, its just that I have this idea in my mind that everyone having a chance between picking heaven or hell or having faith is impossible within a single lifetime, some people just don’t get the chance to live, and its been holding my faith back mostly. If I had this cleared, I could bear with other things.

Hell or heaven is OUR choice; “just” confirms it

God commits Himself to OFFER “sufficient grace” that ALL COULD if they willing to pay the price

The fact that there are so MANY Saints us evidence that it IS POSSIBLE

I am sorry if I have posted a similliar topic to this before regarding children that die early, its just that I have this idea in my mind that everyone having a chance between picking heaven or hell or having faith is impossible within a single lifetime, some people just don’t get the chance to live, and its been holding my faith back mostly. If I had this cleared, I could bear with other things.

GOD can be described as ALL GOOD THING PERFECTED

God remains in charge. Of critical understanding: in a abortion it is NOT God. but both parents committing murder

In the case of others babies death that soul would enter LIMBO; a place of peace and no suffering; but lacking the Beatific Viision

Isa.55: 8 to 9

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

God in order to be GOD can NOT in an absolute sense do ANY evil [He can permit it bit NOT do it]

we, cannot presume t understand the MIND OF GOD

The practice of religion is termed Faith; precisely because most religions hasve and holds in faith, unexplainable beliefs

Pray daily for the GIFTS of Faith, HOPE, and Charity

Since humans are “social animals” we are heavily influenced by the way we were raised.

This creates a problem

There are theese children that menaged to survive, but were raised by animals and science has concluded that since they don’t use most parts of the brain while they are being raised, they end up being like animals, and become irrational, not being able to reason,etc.

Are theese humans even human anymore since they can’t have faith either because they act on natural instinct ? If they aren’t wouldn’t that mean people get souls much later in their life ?

GOD is in charge!
God;s Judgment will be based upon what HE HAS MADE POSSIBLE for each soul to know, live & accept; NOT what we choose to believe & accept

see the next reply we ran out of space

 

[PJM]

BAl of reply

Now I don’t know if this whole thing is even true, since I was only told this by my sociology teacher, but she seems to be a pretty smart person. But this also kinda reminds me of the Romulus and Remus story, which I used to think was clearly blabber and people couldn’t survive living with animals.

My dear friend, as a GREAT GRANDPA, here is some advice

PRAY MORE & think a bit less

Once again, I am heavily sorry for asking this question , but I can’t shake this feeling that there is something wrong with this, and its been shaking my faith quite a bit.

You were wise [PRUDENT] to ask

BUT really Do pray more and not take these stories as MORE than STORIES:smiley:

God Bless you, and be at PEACE
Patrick

 

[DetectiveNiko]

Well I try my best to pray everyday and I appreciate your advice, but as you might have seen from
the previous posts, and now that I have checked, study publifications, they do exsist.

So while I think there is great wisdom in what you say, I think its also important to talk about theese things,
otherwise we are never going to move away from these problems.

 

[PJM]

Thanks,
Going back a long way: MY Grandpa used to say: “IF YOU LOOK FOR TROUBLE YOUR MORE LIKELY TO FIND IT”

What is t you personally can do about this particular problem?

Pray much my young friend,
Patrick

 

[PaulfromIowa]

Humans raised by animals? Where does this happen, exactly?

 

[Quaestor]

There have been a few cases and the case always seems to be wolves. The most famous were the two girls in India, they were baptized by some missionaries but could not adapt to civilization. One or both died shortly thereafter.

 

[PaulfromIowa]

I hope that you do not actually believe such nonsense.