Do miracles change the effects of free will?

[LibralAteoJesus]

The prophets and saints who speaked to God, they had visions and saw angels, witnessed and performed miracles… This sort of certain situations on the knowledge of God and his will were a big factor in turning them into saints and influencing their will; example: Saint Paul.

“From the creation of the world, God’s
invisible qualities, his eternal power and
divine nature, have been clearly observed
in what he made. As a result, people have
no excuse.” Romans 1:20

Paul didn’t see the Abrahamic God or Jesus in creation as this verse is claiming that God is clearly observed by existence, he persecuted Christians until he had the vision where he lost his sight, then he converted to Christianity and became a great saint, his conversion is very similar to many other prophets and saints who without God reaching them via supernatural events, most of them wouldn’t be saints and prophets.

I have few questions:

1- Don’t you have to possess an equivalent kind of supernatural experience and evidence to truly make a choice of free will ? A true choice in accepting or rejecting needs an absolute knowledge that the subject of choice is real. Is free will dependent or not from the knowledge of God?

2- If experiencing supernatural events like of the saints change our life choices, then isn’t this an intervening to free will? Because it’s impossible for most who see God’s undeniable truth to reject it.

3- Is it just that God reaches to some in situations like these but not to others?

 

[R_C]

1- Don’t you have to possess an equivalent kind of supernatural experience and evidence to truly make a choice of free will ? A true choice in accepting or rejecting needs an absolute knowledge that the subject of choice is real. Is free will dependent or not from the knowledge of God?

2- If experiencing supernatural events like of the saints change our life choices, then isn’t this an intervening to free will? Because it’s impossible for most who see God’s undeniable truth to reject it.

3- Is it just that God reaches to some in situations like these but not to others?

1. Not necessarily. God gives each of us what we need in order to choose, and does not ask for the impossible. Besides, we trust in the testimony given to us by writing or word of mouth as sufficient evidence. Courts do this all the time.
2. Nothing can force free will. One person healed from an incurable illness may experience a radical conversion and turn to God for a life of service to others. Another may attribute it to his good luck and spent the rest of his life into the greatest self-indulgent hedonism. Go figure.
3. It is. God, being perfect justice, knows who needs such an act and who doesn’t. For some people, the most natural means suffice for God to dialogue with them, and the most humble events become an intimate encounter with God. For others, a most extraordinary event is needed to shake their hearts. Yet for others great signs are not considered extra-ordinary. Such is the case of men who freely receive a gift of the Spirit and freely place it at the service of the Church, knowing that it is not a sign of their sanctity, but a mere work of the Spirit - some are teachers, some are prophets, some are healers, and so forth.

 

[tonyrey]

The prophets and saints who speaked to God, they had visions and saw angels, witnessed and performed miracles… This sort of certain situations on the knowledge of God and his will were a big factor in turning them into saints and influencing their will; example: Saint Paul.

“From the creation of the world, God’s
invisible qualities, his eternal power and
divine nature, have been clearly observed
in what he made. As a result, people have
no excuse.” Romans 1:20

Paul didn’t see the Abrahamic God or Jesus in creation as this verse is claiming that God is clearly observed by existence, he persecuted Christians until he had the vision where he lost his sight, then he converted to Christianity and became a great saint, his conversion is very similar to many other prophets and saints who without God reaching them via supernatural events, most of them wouldn’t be saints and prophets.

I have few questions:

1- Don’t you have to possess an equivalent kind of supernatural experience and evidence to truly make a choice of free will ? A true choice in accepting or rejecting needs an absolute knowledge that the subject of choice is real. Is free will dependent or not from the knowledge of God?

Free will requires knowledge but knowledge alone is not enough. We also need to have the power to use our knowledge positively or negatively, i.e. with good or ill will.

2- If experiencing supernatural events like of the saints change our life choices, then isn’t this an intervening to free will? Because it’s impossible for most who see God’s undeniable truth to reject it.

Grace is not coercive. It is an offer that can be - and often is - rejected.

3- Is it just that God reaches to some in situations like these but not to others?

It is impossible for us to know the full circumstances even of our own lives let alone those of others. So how can we possibly decide that God is unjust?

 

[JerryZ]

1. Not necessarily. God gives each of us what we need in order to choose, and does not ask for the impossible. Besides, we trust in the testimony given to us by writing or word of mouth as sufficient evidence. Courts do this all the time.
2. Nothing can force free will. One person healed from an incurable illness may experience a radical conversion and turn to God for a life of service to others. Another may attribute it to his good luck and spent the rest of his life into the greatest self-indulgent hedonism. Go figure.
3. It is. God, being perfect justice, knows who needs such an act and who doesn’t. For some people, the most natural means suffice for God to dialogue with them, and the most humble events become an intimate encounter with God. For others, a most extraordinary event is needed to shake their hearts. Yet for others great signs are not considered extra-ordinary. Such is the case of men who freely receive a gift of the Spirit and freely place it at the service of the Church, knowing that it is not a sign of their sanctity, but a mere work of the Spirit - some are teachers, some are prophets, some are healers, and so forth.

Excelent Answers!

 

[LibralAteoJesus]

1. Not necessarily. God gives each of us what we need in order to choose, and does not ask for the impossible. Besides, we trust in the testimony given to us by writing or word of mouth as sufficient evidence. Courts do this all the time.
2. Nothing can force free will. One person healed from an incurable illness may experience a radical conversion and turn to God for a life of service to others. Another may attribute it to his good luck and spent the rest of his life into the greatest self-indulgent hedonism. Go figure.
3. It is. God, being perfect justice, knows who needs such an act and who doesn’t. For some people, the most natural means suffice for God to dialogue with them, and the most humble events become an intimate encounter with God. For others, a most extraordinary event is needed to shake their hearts. Yet for others great signs are not considered extra-ordinary. Such is the case of men who freely receive a gift of the Spirit and freely place it at the service of the Church, knowing that it is not a sign of their sanctity, but a mere work of the Spirit - some are teachers, some are prophets, some are healers, and so forth.

1- The judge in a court isn’t obliged to take testimonies as evidence, each belief can offer it’s own testimonies.

How does God give us what we need in order to choose when some people easily believe and others don’t find any reason to and others have different beliefs? If all what we need in search for truth is coming from the same god, wouldn’t we all have same convictions then be able to choose whether we accept or not?

Why repentance after death isn’t possible, at this time we will be certain and make a real choice?

 

[Linusthe2nd]

The prophets and saints who speaked to God, they had visions and saw angels, witnessed and performed miracles… This sort of certain situations on the knowledge of God and his will were a big factor in turning them into saints and influencing their will;

Have you read the Bible? If you have, you didn’t pay attention. Look at all the people who witnessed the many miracles Christ worked. Still, many rejected him. One still needs the gift of Grace. But miracles do condition one, psychologically, for belief and faith. Still many reject that Grace because they are tied to some sin or life style they do not want to give up. It takes humility to admit one has been wrong and more humility to change ones way of life, to even give up one’s old evil companions, etc.

example: Saint Paul.

“From the creation of the world, God’s
invisible qualities, his eternal power and
divine nature, have been clearly observed
in what he made. As a result, people have
no excuse.” Romans 1:20

Paul didn’t see the Abrahamic God or Jesus in creation as this verse is claiming that God is clearly observed by existence, he persecuted Christians until he had the vision where he lost his sight, then he converted to Christianity and became a great saint, his conversion is very similar to many other prophets and saints who without God reaching them via supernatural events, most of them wouldn’t be saints and prophets.

Your analysis here is way off. Paul believed in God and he was philosopher enough to know that nature reveals the God of creation. Of course it is easier to see that if one has Faith first. You are right that Paul originally rejected Christ as the Son of God. Perhaps he had not yet received the Grace necessary to believe. We just don’t know. But we can be sure that he did believe in God.

1- Don’t you have to possess an equivalent kind of supernatural experience and evidence to truly make a choice of free will ? A true choice in accepting or rejecting needs an absolute knowledge that the subject of choice is real. Is free will dependent or not from the knowledge of God?

No, but it certainly would make things easier. God gives it to those who need it and deserve it. However, those who believe usually do receive psychological/spiritual consolations ( deep interior feelings of love for God or Jesus or even the Holy Spirit or Mary, his Mother and these usually come at odd times, usually at prayer, in receiveing the Sacraments of Confession or Communion, etc. But these may come only very occassionally. The thing is that they help one believe and recommit oneself or enable an original conversion.)

But they are not necessary. All one needs is a basic honesty, the kind of honesty that says, " I will accept the truth even if it isn’t popular. "

2- If experiencing supernatural events like of the saints change our life choices, then isn’t this an intervening to free will?

No. It is more like a " nudge" or a momentary insight or moment of sudden illumination. God often does this even after we have converted. But he does not " force " us to accept it. We are free to accept it or not.

Because it’s impossible for most who see God’s undeniable truth to reject it.

No, it is done every time we commit a sin. We know absolutely what is right, yet we still do not do it. Or we know absolutely that something is wrong, yet we still do it.

3- Is it just that God reaches to some in situations like these but not to others?

No, he often gives us moments of Grace. And usually he will keep on for quite a long period during our lives. But we cannot count on his continued patience. That would be the sin of presumption. " If today you here his voice, harden not your heart. Now is the time to hour. " Why should we act now or promptly? Because tomorrow we may die, we never know. Even at your young age, you must be aware that we cannot count on the unknown tomorrows, they may never arrive.

Linus2nd

 

[JerryZ]

1- The judge in a court isn’t obliged to take testimonies as evidence, each belief can offer it’s own testimonies.

How does God give us what we need in order to choose when some people easily believe and others don’t find any reason to and others have different beliefs? If all what we need in search for truth is coming from the same god, wouldn’t we all have same convictions then be able to choose whether we accept or not?

Why repentance after death isn’t possible, at this time we will be certain and make a real choice?

Could it be that after we die as we are separated from our physical bodies and therefore our brains cannot engage the will?
It is a philosophical musing of mine, maybe I am totally off base here.
But we need to choose during our lifetime wether to act in certain way or reject that and act contrary to our conscience.
On the same token we are given enough grace to accept that our intelect is not the result of some random combination of chemicals, I mean philosophy arrived through reason to some understanding that there is a reality that cannot be grasped by our 5 senses.
You brough the judge and the court metaphore and that is what we have here. Testimony from witnesses that give testimony to God and Jesus.
In the end we are free to receive it or reject it (their testimony)
Also faith is an act of the will, that we need to engage. (by accepting or rejecting that testimony)

 

[TK421]

We have a picture from the scriptures that miracles will massively increase a person’s culpability. Consider that Sodom - even to the present day - has the most popularly infamous Biblical reputation, and yet Jesus reveals to us that such a place would have repented if he had performed such miraculous signs in those cities. It is - in my opinion - indicative of salvation through purgatory. The same cannot be reasonably said of other cities.

Matthew 11: 20-24:
**Then he began to reproach the cities in which most of his deeds of power had been done, because they did not repent. “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the deeds of power done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, on the day of judgment it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon than for you. And you, Capernaum,

will you be exalted to heaven?
No, you will be brought down to Hades.

For if the deeds of power done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I tell you that on the day of judgment it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom than for you.”**

This does not eliminate free will - as we can see there were such cities that remained obstinate - but that leaves very little leverage for places such as Chorazin, Bethsaida, and Capernaum to hide. The Abyss yawns open for them.

 

[ventura2323]

The prophets and saints who speaked to God, they had visions and saw angels, witnessed and performed miracles… This sort of certain situations on the knowledge of God and his will were a big factor in turning them into saints and influencing their will; example: Saint Paul.

“From the creation of the world, God’s
invisible qualities, his eternal power and
divine nature, have been clearly observed
in what he made. As a result, people have
no excuse.” Romans 1:20

Paul didn’t see the Abrahamic God or Jesus in creation as this verse is claiming that God is clearly observed by existence, he persecuted Christians until he had the vision where he lost his sight, then he converted to Christianity and became a great saint, his conversion is very similar to many other prophets and saints who without God reaching them via supernatural events, most of them wouldn’t be saints and prophets.

I have few questions:

1- Don’t you have to possess an equivalent kind of supernatural experience and evidence to truly make a choice of free will ? A true choice in accepting or rejecting needs an absolute knowledge that the subject of choice is real. Is free will dependent or not from the knowledge of God?

2- If experiencing supernatural events like of the saints change our life choices, then isn’t this an intervening to free will? Because it’s impossible for most who see God’s undeniable truth to reject it.

3- Is it just that God reaches to some in situations like these but not to others?

I don’t believe we have free will. If we choose to sin, God has created satan to deal with us.
If we choose to be good satan will have no power, so where is free will? We just have a choice between the two.