Do Most Catholics Get the Gospel?

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pjkramer

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I have a co-worker who is an evangelical Christian. I’ve been trying to share the truth of the Catholic faith to him over the past few years. He is always willing to discuss religious topics, but one issue seems to come up regularly. He says that he often does door-to-door evangelization and surveying. He says that most Catholics he talks to never mention Christ or God’s grace when they are asked how they think a person can go to heaven. Because of this, he is very turned off by the Catholic Church. He says that the true Church would be recognizable by it’s fruit, and he thinks most Catholics are not going to heaven because they do not grasp the gospel truth (namely that only through Christ can we be saved).

I’ve tried to balance things out by telling him that the majority of Catholics that I know believe that Christ is our salvation. Often, many non-practicing Catholics will still call themselves Catholic if asked by someone knocking on their door, so his experience is not representative of practicing Catholics. I believe that among practicing Catholics, you would find a better understanding of salvation through grace.

Personally I don’t believe it’s fair to a judge any religion based on it’s weakest members, but that explanation doesn’t seem to work with him.

Does anyone have any suggestions on where to proceed from here? My co-worker even suggested that I perform my own survey among practicing Catholics to prove him wrong. I’m not sure if that would be fruitful or not.

Any prayers or suggestions are greatly appreciated.
 
you might point out that, when asked by the rich young ruler how he might have eternal life, Jesus did not reply ‘grasp the gospel truth (namely that only through Christ can we be saved)’.

this is the protestant gospel - grasp this truth - hold this theological view - and you’ll be saved. you don’t have to DO anything - just believe these things that we’re telling you, and that will save you.

that’s what sola fides can turn into. sola ourteachings. 🙂

as far as your coworker goes, i don’t think arguing with him about it will accomplish much. after several months of being friends with a certain friend of mine, who was at one time very set against the catholic church, he is now talking to me about taking rcia and is interested in becoming catholic. it didn’t happen by argument. it happened over time, just being his friend, loving him in ways he would understand, and giving him an example of a catholic person who is interested in seriously serving God.

as francis of assisi said - preach the gospel at all times - use words if necessary.
 
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pjkramer:
Does anyone have any suggestions on where to proceed from here? My co-worker even suggested that I perform my own survey among practicing Catholics to prove him wrong. I’m not sure if that would be fruitful or not.
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I suspect that he is embellishing, probably unintentionally because he is seeing things the way he wants to see it. The next time he asks you to do your own survey, simply ask him if you can come along with him when he does his, so you can see what he is talking about first hand.
 
If you want to do a survey, you can make a poll here, and I am certain you would get a very vast majority of Catholics saying that Christ is the only way to salvation. (Although some may reject this, since the modernist teachings seem to be that if a person is a pagan and “invincibly ignorant” of Christ, that he can still be saved, but this is most contrary to the Catholic Faith, which Faith teaches that no one at all outside of the Catholic Church has any hope for salvation.)
 
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pjkramer:
I have a co-worker who is an evangelical Christian. I’ve been trying to share the truth of the Catholic faith to him over the past few years. He is always willing to discuss religious topics, but one issue seems to come up regularly. He says that he often does door-to-door evangelization and surveying. He says that most Catholics he talks to never mention Christ or God’s grace when they are asked how they think a person can go to heaven. Because of this, he is very turned off by the Catholic Church. He says that the true Church would be recognizable by it’s fruit, and he thinks most Catholics are not going to heaven because they do not grasp the gospel truth (namely that only through Christ can we be saved).

I’ve tried to balance things out by telling him that the majority of Catholics that I know believe that Christ is our salvation. Often, many non-practicing Catholics will still call themselves Catholic if asked by someone knocking on their door, so his experience is not representative of practicing Catholics. I believe that among practicing Catholics, you would find a better understanding of salvation through grace.

Personally I don’t believe it’s fair to a judge any religion based on it’s weakest members, but that explanation doesn’t seem to work with him.

Does anyone have any suggestions on where to proceed from here? My co-worker even suggested that I perform my own survey among practicing Catholics to prove him wrong. I’m not sure if that would be fruitful or not.

Any prayers or suggestions are greatly appreciated.
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As an ex-catholic I can appreciate your dilemma. Most RC’s don’t know a bit about anything spiritual. That is because they are told they are christians when they are water baptized. This leads them into a false sense of security, and a false premise. Sorry if the truth hurts.

exrc!
 
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exrc:
As an ex-catholic I can appreciate your dilemma. Most RC’s don’t know a bit about anything spiritual. That is because they are told they are christians when they are water baptized. This leads them into a false sense of security, and a false premise. Sorry if the truth hurts.

exrc!
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As a Catholic you must have associated with the same brand of cafeteria Catholics that you were. Sorry if the truth hurts.

Most people in the US, if they were asked how to get to heaven, would answer “by living a good life.” This isn’t a “Catholic” misconception only. Many Protestants I know would answer the exact same way.
 
Most protestants I have talked to don’t have much a clue on theology either ask them to explain the trinity or the corporal works of mercy they will draw a blank more ofthen than not. Protestants empahsize being saved by faith alone so of course they will have the magic answer for your friend. But they are weaker on other Doctrinal matters to be sure. The Sermon on the mount is not something they are familiar with nor the many other teachings of Jesus they sure can quote that Ephesians 2:8,9 though. ITs selective quotation that protestants excel in and not the overall christian faith. Most Christians both Catholic and Protestant don’t have knowledge of their fatih as the should we live in secularist age thus can name the characters on tv shows far better than the books of the Bible.
Admitting otherwise is to be non-objective.
A weel read catholic can do battle with well read protestant any day.
 
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CatholicCrusade:
If you want to do a survey, you can make a poll here, and I am certain you would get a very vast majority of Catholics saying that Christ is the only way to salvation. (Although some may reject this, since the modernist teachings seem to be that if a person is a pagan and “invincibly ignorant” of Christ, that he can still be saved, but this is most contrary to the Catholic Faith, which Faith teaches that no one at all outside of the Catholic Church has any hope for salvation.)
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Mmmm… seems that you are misrepresenting the teaching on Invincible Ignorance and why a pagan who is righteous in the sight of God (the same as Abraham) might be saved by virtue of the desire of the Church that all men are saved. The Church does not state that the pagan will be saved but that the pagan upon death will face God in the same way as we face God, and if the pagan has lived with the Law upon his heart, even though he does not know the Law, then the probability of that righteous person entering into the Kingdom of Heaven is as high as the probability of anyone else entering into the Kingdom of Heaven.

MaggieOH
 
He is exactly right in that most Catholics don’t mention Christ or God’s grace. In that sense, most Catholics are almost as dumb as most Protestants. It is not that the Church teachings are wrong, the problem is that Catholics are NOT taught basic fundamental Church teachings.
This is because Catholics are not taught the Cathlic faith at mass. They are not taught the fundamental truths of the Gospel at mass. They are not taught the basic fundamental teachings of the Catechism at mass.
After asking a lot of questions and listening I have found the cause of the problem.
The cause is NOT bad priests who teach error. Most priests are good. The problem is NOT bad Catholics who fail to learn their faith. For after all, they are supposed to be taught by the priests. Jesus told the leaders of the Church to teach and preach. At mass all we get is the reading of the scriptures, with very little teaching and preaching, except for rare priests who teach.
After listening to what priests say, and asking priests why they don’t teach Church teachings, and after reading what Scott Hahn, and all the recent Protestant converts say, and after listening to the best Catholics at EWTN and other places, it seems that the cause of the problem is widespread and goes from the bishops, to the top Protestant converts like Scott Hahn, James Akin, in this country all the way down, just about everyone is ignorant of the cause of the problem.
The cause is false idea that the homily mainly supposed to be a commentary on the readings. I have read where a bishop said this, (as a reason why abortion could not be preached about at mass) I have had priests tell me this, I have read where priests told Father Frank Pavone this, (as a reason why they could not talk about abortion at mass), I have never read by anything by any bishop, by anyone at EWTN, by any expert here at www.catholic.com or anywhere else give any other Church directives on what the homily should be about. In other words, it is a universal opinion, not a Church rule, by the top orthodox Catholics in this country that the homily at mass should only be on the readings. Thus, we get dumb Catholics. Because no one is going to learn the basic teachings of salvation, sin, grace, the sacraments, the mass, the Church teachings on the necessity of Eucharist, etc. by listening to a commentary on the scripture readings. In fact the Pope condemned the idea that the readings are the sole criteria of truth.
In his encyclical on “Faith and Reason” He wrote:
"One currently widespread symptom of this fideistic tendency is a biblicism which tends to make the reading and exegesis of Sacred Scripture the sole criterion of truth. In consequence, the word of God is identified with Sacred Scripture alone"
This is exactly what we get at mass. In consequence, the word of God is identified with Sacred Scripture alone, thus all we get is scripture, and since scripture is NOT the basis for teaching the Gospel, and since Scripture is only part of the word of God, we get dumb Catholics.
 
Right away people will object and say that the homily is NOT the place to teach the Catechism or present the teachings of the Catechism. Of course it is. The Catechism presents the teachings of Sacred Tradition, which is the word of God. (which we never hear) It presents these teachings in union with Scripture, which is the way the word of God is supposed to be taught. The apostles never taught the Gospel by reading scripture. They taught and preached the teachings of the creed, sacraments, commandment and prayer, and used scripture here and there to illuminate their teachings. How do we know this? Because all the early Christians knew the basic teachings on sin, grace, the sacraments, (we are first saved when we are baptized), the mass, mortal sin, purgatory, the Eucharist, etc. Catholics today don’t know these basic teachings because all we get are commentaries on scripture.
Since Catholics must be taught the Gospel, we would assume the Church would require catechizing (another word for TEACHING) during the homily.
Of course it does. Remember “catechize” means “teach.”
The Catechism teaches: in 132 “catechetics and all Christian instruction, in which the liturgical homily must hold the foremost place…”
Notice that in regards to catechetics , "teaching" the "HOMILY must hold the foremost place".
It is NOT an option.
And again the Catechism teaches:
1074. “The liturgy is the summit toward which the activity of the Church is directed; it is also the font from which all her power flows.” [13] It is therefore the privileged place for catechizing the People of God.

I never heard a single leading orthodox Catholic give this Church teaching in my entire life.
Now it is clear in regards to teaching the homily MUST
hold foremost place and it is the privileged place for teaching. What is the basis for this teaching? What is the norm for giving this teaching? Well, since all Catholics know that only the Catechism gives a summary of all of the word of God, that is, both Scripture and Sacred Tradition, we would expect the Catechism to be a sure norm for teaching the faith. Of course.
The Church, teaches exactly that.
The Pope teaches infallibly:
"The Catechism of the Catholic Church … is a statement of the Church’s faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition and the Church’s Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith" (John Paul II, Apostolic Constitution Fidei Depositum)

The Church also teaches:
– “a sure norm for teaching the faith”: (421) the Catechism of the Catholic Church offers a clear response to the legitimate right of all the baptized to know from the Church what she has received and what she believes; it is thus an obligatory point of reference for catechesis and for the other forms of the ministry of the word."
*GENERAL DIRECTORY *FOR CATECHESIS
 
Conclusion:
The reason why Catholics don’t know basic Church teachings is because from the bishops, to the top Catholics, Karl Keating, included, all the way down, nobody, knows the o****fficial Catholic position regarding TEACHING, (catechesis) in which the

1. HOMILY "must hold the foremost place"
2.** This teaching must be based on the Catechism:**
“a sure norm for teaching the faith”: and "an obligatory point of reference for catechesis"

Scripture is NOT a sure norm for teaching the faith. Scripture is NOT "an obligatory point of reference for catechesis.
**** **Scripture only presents part of the word of God, and it is presented in salvation history format, not a teaching format. No one in the history of civilization ever first learned the Gospel by reading scripture, or by having scripture read to him. Catholics will continue to remain dumb, will continue to quit going to mass, will continue to become secularized as long as the false idea that the homily is supposed to be based on the readings instead of the catechism. **
**** Feel free to send this note to Jimmy Akin, Karl Keating, Scott Hahn, any Bishop, or anyone else who might have some influence. Maybe they will change their mind. Because nobody seems to be listening to the Pope, like Jesus said to do.
 
dcdurel said:
Catholics will continue to remain dumb, will continue to quit going to mass, will continue to become secularized as long as the false idea that the homily is supposed to be based on the readings instead of the catechism.
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I guess that false idea was planted by the evil evil document the General Instruction of the Roman Missal:
  1. The homily is an integral part of the liturgy and is strongly recommended:[35] it is necessary for the nurturing of the Christian life. It should develop some point of the readings or of another text from the Ordinary or from the Proper of the Mass of the day, and take into account the mystery being celebrated and the needs proper to the listeners.[36]
 
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pjkramer:
I have a co-worker who is an evangelical Christian. I’ve been trying to share the truth of the Catholic faith to him over the past few years. He is always willing to discuss religious topics, but one issue seems to come up regularly. He says that he often does door-to-door evangelization and surveying. He says that most Catholics he talks to never mention Christ or God’s grace when they are asked how they think a person can go to heaven. Because of this, he is very turned off by the Catholic Church. He says that the true Church would be recognizable by it’s fruit, and he thinks most Catholics are not going to heaven because they do not grasp the gospel truth (namely that only through Christ can we be saved).

I’ve tried to balance things out by telling him that the majority of Catholics that I know believe that Christ is our salvation. Often, many non-practicing Catholics will still call themselves Catholic if asked by someone knocking on their door, so his experience is not representative of practicing Catholics. I believe that among practicing Catholics, you would find a better understanding of salvation through grace.

Personally I don’t believe it’s fair to a judge any religion based on it’s weakest members, but that explanation doesn’t seem to work with him.

Does anyone have any suggestions on where to proceed from here? My co-worker even suggested that I perform my own survey among practicing Catholics to prove him wrong. I’m not sure if that would be fruitful or not.

Any prayers or suggestions are greatly appreciated.
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  1. He’s right about this. Most people who identify themselves as Catholic are not active or practicing Catholics. Many have very little theological knowledge and don’t really know what the Catholic Church of the year 2005 teaches. Some may have sentimental or ethnic attachments to the Catholic church and may even attend Mass on occasion (usually Christmas and/or Easter). He’s wrong in judging who will go to heaven and who will not.
  2. He is likely to remain disappointed about the Catholic faith by discussing matters with practicing Catholics, as you suggest. The Catholic faith is quite different from the Evangelical Protestant faiths in its soteriology and ecclesiology, and in matters such as what is meant by saving or sanctifying grace, justification, sanctification and salvation.
  3. In order to truly appreciate the Catholic church, your friend will need to re-examine his beliefs in Sola Scriptura, Sola Fidei, and the Darby/Scofield Dispensationalism that permeates much of modern evangelical thinking. Even worse, there is an Americanized evangelicalism that is pushed upon the masses. This is reflected in the pervasive Seeker-Sensitive movement, the Prosperity Doctrine movement, the Evangelization explosion movement, etc. When Evangelical Protestants go to the mission field, they bring with them an Americanized version of Evangelical Christianity and impose it upon the culture. Catholicism incorporates and blends the culture with the Catholic faith, including pagan elements of it. Mainline protestants are beginning to recognize this and many have curtailed or re-defined their evangelization efforts.
  4. Your best bet in dealing with your evangelical co-worker. Private prayer and good example.
 
dcdurel said:
Conclusion:
The reason why Catholics don’t know basic Church teachings is because from the bishops, to the top Catholics, Karl Keating, included, all the way down, nobody, knows the o****fficial Catholic position regarding TEACHING, (catechesis) in which the

1. HOMILY "must hold the foremost place"
2.** This teaching must be based on the Catechism:**
“a sure norm for teaching the faith”: and "an obligatory point of reference for catechesis"

Scripture is NOT a sure norm for teaching the faith. Scripture is NOT "an obligatory point of reference for catechesis.
Scripture only presents part of the word of God, and it is presented in salvation history format, not a teaching format. No one in the history of civilization ever first learned the Gospel by reading scripture, or by having scripture read to him. Catholics will continue to remain dumb, will continue to quit going to mass, will continue to become secularized as long as the false idea that the homily is supposed to be based on the readings instead of the catechism.
Feel free to send this note to Jimmy Akin, Karl Keating, Scott Hahn, any Bishop, or anyone else who might have some influence. Maybe they will change their mind. Because nobody seems to be listening to the Pope, like Jesus said to do.
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You are definitely on to something here! However, it still won’t bring the change you want, because most of the people are spiritually dead, as I was. First you have to get them saved, but not by the false gospel of rome. When will you RC’s learn?

exrc
 
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exrc:
You are definitely on to something here! However, it still won’t bring the change you want, because most of the people are spiritually dead, as I was. First you have to get them saved, but not by the false gospel of rome. When will you RC’s learn?

exrc
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Blah, blah, blah …tiring old rhetoric …easy to point the finger and complain once you have jumped ship. Easier to be part of the problem than part of the solution. Before calling the kettle black, survey your own current denomination/church. Your broad catgorizations of “most RC’s” and “most of the people” are just that, broad & subjective. FYI: only the Holy Spirit can bring about the authentic change and renewal that you identify as lacking; not man or the Church, who are instruments and vessels of God’s grace to save. Too bad for you and those that you complain about that you put yourself first and instead of putting yourself at the service of the Church for authentic renewal. 😦
 
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exrc:
As an ex-catholic I can appreciate your dilemma. Most RC’s don’t know a bit about anything spiritual. That is because they are told they are christians when they are water baptized. This leads them into a false sense of security, and a false premise. Sorry if the truth hurts.

exrc!
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Most Protestant’s believe that “once saved, always saved”, which leads them into a false sense of security, and a false premise. Sorry if the truth hurts. :o
 
exrc, do you have anything intellegent to add to the discussion?
 
Théodred:
I guess that false idea was planted by the evil evil document the General Instruction of the Roman Missal:
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It could also be a matter of quoting things out of context. The whole section of the Catechism first quoted is Article 3 (Sacred Scripture), Section V. (Sacred Scripture in the Life of the Church). Please compare dcdurel’s excerpt with the full text:
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dcdurel:
in 132 “catechetics and all Christian instruction, in which the liturgical homily must hold the foremost place…”
Notice that in regards to catechetics , "teaching" the "HOMILY must hold the foremost place".
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**CCC 132 **“Therefore, the ‘study of the sacred page’ should be the very soul of sacred theology. The ministry of the Word, too - pastoral preaching, catechetics, and all the forms of Christian instruction, among which the liturgical homily should hold pride of place - is healthily nourished and thrives in holiness through the Word of Scripture.” (quote from DV 24)
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This completely contradicts the conclusion that…
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dcdurel:
Scripture is NOT a sure norm for teaching the faith. Scripture is NOT "an obligatory point of reference for catechesis.
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The second passage from Part Two, *The Celebration of the Christian Ministry, *Catechesis and Liturgy CCC 1074:
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dcdurel:
  1. “The liturgy is the summit toward which the activity of the Church is directed; it is also the font from which all her power flows.” [13] It is therefore the privileged place for catechizing the People of God.
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Continues…
“Catechesis is intrinsically linked with the whole of liturgical and sacramental activity, for it is in the sacraments, especially in the Eucharist, that Christ Jesus works in fullness for the transformation of men”.
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Note: no mention of homily. The emphasis on the liturgy is actually directed towards the sacraments, especially the Eucharist.

I do believe that a good homilist will catechize using the readings and Gospel in the Liturgy of the Word - it’s a great way to tie the Catechism in with the Bible. To give the Bible a secondary role is a flawed understanding of Church teaching.

God Bless,

Robert.
 
Théodred:
I guess that false idea was planted by the evil evil document the General Instruction of the Roman Missal:
  1. The homily is an integral part of the liturgy and is strongly recommended:[35] it is necessary for the nurturing of the Christian life. It should develop some point of the readings or of another text from the Ordinary or from the Proper of the Mass of the day, and take into account the mystery being celebrated and the needs proper to the listeners.[36]
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And how does this contradict my quotes?

It doesn’t. Notice that the General Instruction of the Roman Missal says the homily should develope a point of the readings, or of another text from the Ordinary or from the Proper of the Mass.
1. Only one of three choices is from the readings. Thus, why the false idea that everyone gets taught that the homily is only to be on the readings? Where does that false idea come from? From the text of the Mass, one can go to the creed, thus to any point of doctrine.
2. If one developes a point of the readings,** where in the world does the GIRM limit the developement of that point only to the content of the readings.** In other words, lets say the readings mentions sin. Where does the GIRM, or ANY Catholic document say that the developement on the point of sin, should just be limited only to the sins listed in the readings, and not sin in general? Developement means to go beyond the immediate idea. Thus, if the priest wants to teach about the definition of sin, he can’t go to the readings of that day which will not have a definition of sin. He must go to the Catechism, “a sure norm for teaching the faith”. If the priest wants to teach the people how God enables us to overcome sin by His grace, he will not find that answer in the readings. The readings are NOT going to give an explanation of how Jesus merited the grace of salvation on the cross, how He gives us this grace in the sacraments, especially in the Eucharist. The readings are NOT going to teach that the greatest source of grace in the world is the Eucharist. The readings are NOT going to teach that the main reason Jesus instituted Holy Communion is to give us the grace to overcome our mortal sins. These are teachings in the Catechism, which are NOT found explicit in the readings. Thus, the readings CANNOT be a sure norm for teaching the faith. The reason Catholics don’t know the few things I just mentioned about **grace **is because the false idea spread througout the Catholic world, in which the homily must be only on the content of the readings and cannot go beyond that content. That is false idea spread by dissidents. There is NO such Church teaching. The Church never, ever taught that the homily must be only on the readings. Yet the “experts” at seminaries, Catholic colleges, etc. constantly spread this horrible false idea. It has gotten to the point that everyone blindly accepts it. Thus Catholics think the word of God is only scripture and in then end they become almost as ignorant as Protestants.
 
The Catechism makes it clear the liturgy is the pride of place of Catechesis. While all the sacraments are included in the meaning of liturgy, it is only at the Mass that we partake in the liturgy regularly. Thus it must be the pride of place of Catechesis.
And the sure norm for teaching the faith (Catechesis) is the Catechism, not scripture. This is Church teaching. This comes from the Pope himself. We must learn to be humble and accept the primary authority that Jesus Christ gave us, and that is Peter and his successor, the Pope. The Church is also a LIVING teaching authority. Thus, the good Popes will always have teachings to guide the Church so it won’t be misled by the errors of scripture scholars and theologians. When we ignore the Pope we turn into spiritual dummies. That is why Catholics are so dumb on the basic teachings of sin and grace, the sacraments, the moral teachings and salvation in general.
Scripture does NOT teach explicitly and clearly about sin and grace. Scripture does NOT teach explicitly and clearly about confession, confirmation, and the sacraments. Scripture does NOT teach clearly about sexual morality. But, the early Fathers all knew these things. That is because the Church does teach these things. The Catechism has BOTH of God’s word, scripture and Sacred Tradition. During the teaching of Catholic doctrine, scripture can be used to nourish the teachings and to illuminate the teachings. But it cannot be used as a sure norm for teaching, because it is incomplete and not explicit, and it is not in a teaching format. The Catechism does present God’s word in Sacred Tradition. The Catechism is in a teaching format.
Scripture then can be used to nourish these teachings and to illuminate them, and as a witness to the teachings.
And lest anyone believe that the Catechism alone is a sure norm, lets us remember that the Church is a living teaching authority, thus we must constantly look to the authorities that JESUS CHRIST appointed, (the Pope and those bishops in union with him) and use them as our guide.
 
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