Do souls "arrive" into Heaven?

[NJada]

This is a question whose answer is probably above my head, but I’ve been wondering about this, and I’m not sure what to search for to find an answer.

So at death the body and soul are separated, and when a soul is judged to go to Heaven, they are there with God awaiting the reunification with their bodies. And so after the general Resurrection, those resurrected to eternal life will sort of simultaneously be in the New Heaven and the New Earth, right?

So my question is: If Heaven is in eternity, outside of the temporal world, apart from space or time, can it be said that a soul arrived there? As in, the soul was not there is Heaven in eternity at one point, and then later on the soul got there? How could that be, if there is no time?

I wouldn’t want to hold anything heretical like the preexistence of souls or radical predestination, but it kind of seems like that would mean that those souls that are “now” in Heaven would have to have always been there, and that whoever of us will be in Heaven are already there in eternity–maybe having something to do with that mysterious “Book of Life”. I assume there is a better answer, but I’m wondering what it is.

Does anyone know how this works out? Or is my question based on any misconceptions?

 

[Kei]

Our stay in Heaven is everlasting in that it never ends once we get there, and we have always lasting life. Not as in we were always there.

Think of the numbers that exist. Start at 1, 2, 3, 4, 5… and it can go on forever. However, it starts at 1. As opposed to counting all the negative numbers etc

 

[NJada]

That would make sense to me if our afterlife took place only in the temporal world, where we live everlastingly in a temporal sense, beginning at some particular time and going on forever, since we will be in a New Earth as well as a New Heaven.

CCC 997:
In death, the separation of the soul from the body, the human body decays and the soul goes to meet God, while awaiting its reunion with its glorified body. God, in his almighty power, will definitively grant incorruptible life to our bodies by reuniting them with our souls, through the power of Jesus’ Resurrection.

So what about this intermediate period, when the soul is with God in Heaven without a body, until the Resurrection? Is time and space also a part of Heaven?–and if not, then how is a soul said to begin to be there? I would have thought that a creature could only be subject to time and space if they have a corporeal body, which we will have again at the general Resurrection.

 

[Kei]

We after death do not have a body, until the Last Judgement, when our bodies and souls are met again.

Sort of like angels, we can be without physical bodies and still be in a place. On whether heaven has space or time, that’s getting into some territory some may want to avoid. We have a very old idea of the Empyrean heaven, etc., but some want to say it is like a state.

In my humble lay opinion, I find it much easier to think of Heaven as a place.

 

[PJM]

I tried and failed many time to COPY the OP post.

His topic is interesting; but his positions seem unclear to me.

Here is what happens at death
The human Soul which is exclusively eternal and rational is immediately separated from the body and faces the IMMEDIATE Judgment.

Souls with unremitted; unforgiven {John 20:19-23; 1 Jn 5:16-17} Mortal sin are self-condemned to eternal Hell

Souls with no Mortal sins; but venial sins or the Temporal Punishment ALL sins accrue have a DEBT to be repaid before they can access heaven as only PERFECT Souls are admitted; so these Souls go to Purgatory to repay this debt; BUT are assured of eventually attaining Heaven

Souls that are literally “perfect” upon death ascend directly into the Beatific Vision.

Souls DUE heaven have been there sense there death and after the Resurrection for eternity to come

I hope this clarifies the issue

Easter Peace,
Patrick

 

[Hereiam]

Depends if you beleve Heaven is a physical place…my own thoughts are that its a state, where the beatific vision is realized, and not a place…i see the New Jerusalem and the mansion with many rooms, and other biblical descriptions as metaphors for this stste, because they are frames of reference that we can wrap our heads around.

 

[NJada]

Yes, but I’m still not clear whether or not there can be change in Heaven.

I tend to think (though I’m happy to be corrected) that Heaven is neither a physical place nor simply a state of mind–it doesn’t seem like either of those describe it, not that I would know how to describe Heaven haha. Of course I do believe we will live in a place, after the general Resurrection, being both in Heaven and on earth. But if we can be said to be in a “place” in that between stage, I don’t see how that place would be subject to space and time, if it is the very same abode as the angels.

As this priest says in this lecture (the segment beginning at 19:30):
“St. Thomas would say that angels are said to be in a place insofar as their power is being acted upon at a place. . . . ‘Place’ is something that is more proper to the material world.”

Isn’t that why the angels had one chance only to choose either obey and love God or not, to make that one freewill decision?–and now their wills are forever fixated on whichever they chose?–whereas for us, we can change our will, because we have bodies?

One of the things that caused me to bring this up, is because it seems like a reasonable explanation as to why you can’t change your mind after death, why you can’t escape Hell or fall from Heaven: because once you are separated from your body, the will you had at death is the will you have at your judgment. And so a person in a state of mortal sin would not be able to endure His presence, nor desire to repent, but would prefer Hell. And a person in a state of grace, even if they aren’t perfect, will be willing to endure whatever suffering they have to endure in Purgatory to be with God.

Since our resurrected bodies will be incorruptible (as in the Catechism and 1 Cor 15), it would seem that the bodies of the blessed will be able to go about choosing different good things, but would never desire sin; whereas the damned would go about doing all the evils they are fixated on, but never can desire God.

Well, I’m sure I can go this life without knowing the answers, but if an answer comes along, it could be very useful.

 

[NJada]

Bump?

Or, perhaps I should ask, if a direct answer to this question would require that many others points be established as prerequisite, what might those prerequisites be, or what good writings would get into this?

 

[Gorgias]

Depends if you beleve Heaven is a physical place…my own thoughts are that its a state, where the beatific vision is realized, and not a place…i see the New Jerusalem and the mansion with many rooms, and other biblical descriptions as metaphors for this stste, because they are frames of reference that we can wrap our heads around.

That seems a workable definition for the state of affairs prior to the eschaton. (There’s still the question of how Mary, assumed body and soul into heaven, fits into that kind of definition, though… right? )

However, at the eschaton, we will receive glorified bodies. And therefore, at that time, heaven will have a physical dimension. Perhaps, then, it means that, at that point and for all of eternity, all of creation will be ‘heaven’! (Of course, then we have to ask “what about hell? ‘Where’ will hell be?”

 

[Hereiam]

However, at the eschaton, we will receive glorified bodies. And therefore, at that time, heaven will have a physical dimension.

Why? Perhaps, because of human understanding we feel the need for a physical dimension. Could there not be dimensions outside our understanding that accommodate both the physical body and the spirit?

I guess we’ll find out on that day!

Pax et bonum!

 

[NJada]

Bump: Any more (name removed by moderator)ut on this anyone?

It seems to me certain that our life after the eschaton must be both physical and spiritual: “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the first heaven and the first earth was gone, and the sea is now no more.” (Apo 21:1).

And St. Thomas:
“God provides for everything according to the capacity of its nature. Now it is natural to man to attain to intellectual truths through sensible objects, because all our knowledge originates from sense.”
(ST I.1.9)
I would think that God intends for it to be remain this way, and did not simply make the physical world, and work the unimaginable work of uniting a body to a rational soul, just so He could destroy it all and have us live as angels.

It would certainly seem that God could provide for us, in our temporarily incorporeal situation, to attain all intellectual truths in an infused way, as with the angels, when we are in Heaven before the eschaton. Most of all since “We know, that, when he shall appear, we shall be like to him: because we shall see him as he is,” (1 Jn 3:2), which seems to apply just as well to our particular judgment as to the General Judgment. But then again Jesus says, “For in the resurrection they shall neither marry nor be married; but shall be as the angels of God in heaven.” (Mt 22:30).

I was meaning to read more of this paper here, written by a good Dominican friar, which deals with at least aspects of this issue. The most relevant part, I think, begins at page 49 on the views of Aquinas:

(PDF) STL Tesina: Why Can We Not Repent After We Die? | Lawrence Lew - Academia.edu

There’s still the question of how Mary, assumed body and soul into heaven, fits into that kind of definition, though… right?

Oh yeah, and then there’s this–even before the General Resurrection. Where are Jesus and Mary’s bodies? If theirs are the only physical bodies perfectly redeemed, perfectly compatible with the spirit, while “the expectation of the creature [that is, all creation] waiteth for the revelation of the sons of God. . . . waiting for the adoption of the sons of God, the redemption of our body,” (Rom 8:19,23), does Heaven consist of nothing physical but their two bodies? I’ve wondered about that. I really have no idea, haha, but I’m sure it fits together somehow.

Not that any of this directly addresses my original question concerning time and eternity, but things seem to tie together one way or another, after dancing around the issue with various other topics.