Do Traditional Catholics emphasise the fear of God?

[DL82]

Many of the Traditional Catholics I have spoken to have a view of the Mass that seems to imply that God will be satisfied with nothing other than a perfectly followed, solemn liturgy. If this is the case, is this because Traditional Catholics believe that God’s jealousy and justice are to be feared?

Is it simply that some Catholics emphasise God’s free and unconditional love and others emphasise His awesome power, justice and purity? Are these two equally important aspects of God? Can they ever both be incorporated into the liturgy, or will it always be more about one aspect than the other?

Clearly, some Traditionalists think many priests take the freedom aspect too far. Can the justice aspect sometimes be taken too far in the opposite direction though?

Are the changes in the liturgy a reflection of evolving understandings of God’s character, or a rejection or departure from the Catholic understanding of God? Clearly, it seems that in every generation the Church has become more aware of God’s mercy, rituals have changed and adapted, people have become better able to integrate faith and life, and penances have become less extreme. Is this a good thing or not?

 

[LordNecro]

Just to wind some people up - a priest I know pointed out that those who follow what the Church is currently teaching are the Traditionalists - in that they are following Tradition. Those who are disputing this are Reactionaries.

 

[santodomingo]

Many of the Traditional Catholics I have spoken to have a view of the Mass that seems to imply that God will be satisfied with nothing other than a perfectly followed, solemn liturgy. If this is the case, is this because Traditional Catholics believe that God’s jealousy and justice are to be feared?

I think the reason why “traditionalists” insist on the solemnity of the liturgy has little to do with what God likes. I can only really speak for myself, but an informal, trendy liturgy does nothing to help us get in touch with God. WE need a reverential liturgy, not God. The Lord needs none of our worship, our prayers and our Holy Masses. It´s for the benefit of OUR souls that we do these things.

Is it simply that some Catholics emphasise God’s free and unconditional love and others emphasise His awesome power, justice and purity? Are these two equally important aspects of God? Can they ever both be incorporated into the liturgy, or will it always be more about one aspect than the other?

Clearly, some Traditionalists think many priests take the freedom aspect too far. Can the justice aspect sometimes be taken too far in the opposite direction though?

I don´t go along with this dichotomy. I believe we must always keep in mind BOTH sides of the Truth; God´s mercy and God´s justice. Mercy makes no sense without justice, and justice without mercy is loveless.

Are the changes in the liturgy a reflection of evolving understandings of God’s character, or a rejection or departure from the Catholic understanding of God? Clearly, it seems that in every generation the Church has become more aware of God’s mercy, rituals have changed and adapted, people have become better able to integrate faith and life, and penances have become less extreme. Is this a good thing or not?

I don´t quite understand what you mean by this. Do you honestly think you have a greater understanding of God´s mercy now than St. Benedict in the sixth century, St. Francis in the thirteenth century, St. Ignatius in the sixteenth century, or St. Louis-Marie Grignon de Montfort in the eighteenth century, to name but four of my favourite saints? Read up about their penances. These men of God understood better than anyone the extent of God´s infinite mercy and their penances were extreme.

 

[BayernAnhaenger]

Many of the Traditional Catholics I have spoken to have a view of the Mass that seems to imply that God will be satisfied with nothing other than a perfectly followed, solemn liturgy. If this is the case, is this because Traditional Catholics believe that God’s jealousy and justice are to be feared?

Is it simply that some Catholics emphasise God’s free and unconditional love and others emphasise His awesome power, justice and purity? Are these two equally important aspects of God? Can they ever both be incorporated into the liturgy, or will it always be more about one aspect than the other?

Clearly, some Traditionalists think many priests take the freedom aspect too far. Can the justice aspect sometimes be taken too far in the opposite direction though?

Are the changes in the liturgy a reflection of evolving understandings of God’s character, or a rejection or departure from the Catholic understanding of God? Clearly, it seems that in every generation the Church has become more aware of God’s mercy, rituals have changed and adapted, people have become better able to integrate faith and life, and penances have become less extreme. Is this a good thing or not?

They probably just think that the Mass, as given to us by God through the Church, should not be changed, and rubrics ignored, at the whim of some priest or liturgical committee.

 

[Genesis315]

Following rubrics, etc. is proper not because God is jealous and only accepts perfectly executed liturgies. Cardinal Arinze explains this well, especially in section 2 (Reasons for Liturgical Norms).

zenit.org/article-9919?l=english

 

[brigid12]

They probably just think that the Mass, as given to us by God through the Church, should not be changed, and rubrics ignored, at the whim of some priest or liturgical committee.

IMHO it seems that following rubrics, et al, is really about obedience. Obedience is having a rough time of it in western culture (as it has in many times past). Sometimes I wonder if there is not a political move within some more local ecclesial bodies to make Rome not important (which, of course, would have beginnings in Original Sin & the devil). That has also been tried numerous times.

 

[Freshman88]

Many of the Traditional Catholics I have spoken to have a view of the Mass that seems to imply that God will be satisfied with nothing other than a perfectly followed, solemn liturgy. If this is the case, is this because Traditional Catholics believe that God’s jealousy and justice are to be feared?

We advocate nothing other than a perfectly followed solemn liturgy because God is to be feared, this is partly true. We also do it because God is good, because God is just, because God is great, because God is all powerful, because God is all-loving, because God is merciful because, because, because… God is God.

He is God, and deserves our best. I should hope we have a solemn pefectly followed liturgy, for that reason alone, OF, EF, Eastern, it doesn’t matter. We owe God our best, because He is the one who can say “I am, who I am”.

 

[Freshman88]

Are the changes in the liturgy a reflection of evolving understandings of God’s character, or a rejection or departure from the Catholic understanding of God?

Neither. God Is to be Feared, but God is also merciful. Why do you place these qualities in opposition to one another?

 

[DixitDominus]

Most Catholics who desire liturgically correct Masses do so not only because they fear God, but also because they love God and wish to give Him only their best.

 

[jheii]

Many of the Traditional Catholics I have spoken to have a view of the Mass that seems to imply that God will be satisfied with nothing other than a perfectly followed, solemn liturgy. If this is the case, is this because Traditional Catholics believe that God’s jealousy and justice are to be feared?

Is it simply that some Catholics emphasise God’s free and unconditional love and others emphasise His awesome power, justice and purity? Are these two equally important aspects of God? Can they ever both be incorporated into the liturgy, or will it always be more about one aspect than the other?

Clearly, some Traditionalists think many priests take the freedom aspect too far. Can the justice aspect sometimes be taken too far in the opposite direction though?

Are the changes in the liturgy a reflection of evolving understandings of God’s character, or a rejection or departure from the Catholic understanding of God? Clearly, it seems that in every generation the Church has become more aware of God’s mercy, rituals have changed and adapted, people have become better able to integrate faith and life, and penances have become less extreme. Is this a good thing or not?

“Traditional Catholics” are Catholics. Some Catholics prefer Latin in the liturgy. Some Catholics prefer the Extraordinary form of the mass. Some Catholics prefer praying the rosary with only three sets of mysteries instead of four. Some Catholics go to confession regularly, even when they are not in a state of mortal sin. No two Catholics on Earth “understand” God in exactly the same way. We are all imperfect. I think it is wrong to say the groups of Catholics–“liberal” or “traditional”–have a limited or misguided understanding of God. Trust in Holy Mother Church to produce children who love and honor their Father. Liberal, conservative; traditional, ecumenical; Latin, Byzantine; we all belong to the One True Church because of the unique faith in God that we all share. Don’t let any labels or disagreements amongst us distort that fact.

God bless.

 

[DonaNobis_Pacem]

“Traditional Catholics” are Catholics. Some Catholics prefer Latin in the liturgy. Some Catholics prefer the Extraordinary form of the mass. Some Catholics prefer praying the rosary with only three sets of mysteries instead of four. Some Catholics go to confession regularly, even when they are not in a state of mortal sin. No two Catholics on Earth “understand” God in exactly the same way. We are all imperfect. I think it is wrong to say the groups of Catholics–“liberal” or “traditional”–have a limited or misguided understanding of God. Trust in Holy Mother Church to produce children who love and honor their Father. Liberal, conservative; traditional, ecumenical; Latin, Byzantine; we all belong to the One True Church because of the unique faith in God that we all share. Don’t let any labels or disagreements amongst us distort that fact.

God bless.

I think you got it just right, brother. May the peace of Christ the King be with all of us as we end this liturgical year and ready ourselves for a new one, beginning with the preparatory season of Advent.

J+M+J

 

[jheii]

I’d like to add one thing re: “Our evolving understanding of God’s character.”

The notion that there is an evolving understanding of God’s character is false. The central proposition of this idea is that the Church currently understands more about God’s character than was understood in the past. This proposition cannot be true, because if it were then we would know more about the character of God than Peter and the other Apostles did when He was alive on this Earth amongst them. We certainly do not know more about God than those whom He personally chose to carry out His ministry. Our understanding of God’s character has not evolved. The Depositum Fidei has remained the same. What has changed, or evolved, over time and space is the way that the Church hands down Her teachings to the faithful. That, I believe, is the reason that Christ created the Catholic Church: because He knew that the Gospel could not be given to 20th century Americans in the same way that it was given to first century Palestinians, Greeks, and Romans. The “subdivisions” in the Church that I listed in my earlier post–Latin/Byzantine, Liberal/Traditional, etc.–do not suggest an evolving understanding of God’s character, but they exemplify the myriad ways in which the Church passes on Her wisdom to different people at different times and in different places.

God Bless.

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

Just to wind some people up - a priest I know pointed out that those who follow what the Church is currently teaching are the Traditionalists - in that they are following Tradition. Those who are disputing this are Reactionaries.

Your priest needs to read the encyclical Pascendi, in which Pope Pius X condemned the errors of the modernists. He went into great detail about their errors. One of their errors is a false understanding of “tradition”. Suffice it to say, it sounds as if your priest has the exact “understanding” of tradition that Pope Pius X condemned - that is, a notion of a tradition that is every evolving and progressing.

BTW, it would also be very revealing to hear what your Priest thinks the Church is “currently teaching” as opposed to what it has always taught.

 

[eelpis]

“The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.”

Of the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit, fear of the Lord is the first, without it there is no other gift. It’s the first but not the most noble, that is wisdom.

 

[Timothysis]

Your priest needs to read the encyclical Pascendi, in which Pope Pius X condemned the errors of the modernists. He went into great detail about their errors. One of their errors is a false understanding of “tradition”. Suffice it to say, it sounds as if your priest has the exact “understanding” of tradition that Pope Pius X condemned - that is, a notion of a tradition that is every evolving and progressing.

BTW, it would also be very revealing to hear what your Priest thinks the Church is “currently teaching” as opposed to what it has always taught.

This is pretty amusing. So you say that current Church teaching is “modernism,” which is an error condemned because it is opposed to “tradition.” Yet, the modern Church claims to follow it’s ancient traditions in the liturgy and the sacraments but , according to you, it is a "false understanding of “tradition.” So Pope Benedict XVI, who so many cheer as steering the Church toward more traditional waters is actually a “modernist” because he is part of the modern Church and has a false understanding of “tradition,” even though he has made it known that he has a preference for the older style celebrations. This reminds me of a poster here who said that Pope Benedict is a modernist and a traditionalist at the same time!!!

BTW, if you would like to know all that the Church currently teaches you will find it in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

This is pretty amusing. So you say that current Church teaching is “modernism,” which is an error condemned because it is opposed to “tradition.”

I’m not sure if I following you there, and I’m pretty sure you misunderstood me. My point was, the teachings of the Church do not change. They are what they were, even if some heretical Priest no longer believe those teachings. The priest in question spoke of following what the Church is “currently teachings”. This begs the question: What is the “current teaching” that he is referring? Is it that birth control is now permitted? After all, many Priests now teach this. Is it that the Catholic Church is not the only true Church, but merely a religion that has “more” truths that other religions? What are the imagined “new teachings” that the Traditionalists are not following?

Yet, the modern Church claims to follow it’s ancient traditions in the liturgy and the sacraments but , according to you, it is a "false understanding of “tradition.” So Pope Benedict XVI, who so many cheer as steering the Church toward more traditional waters is actually a “modernist” because he is part of the modern Church and has a false understanding of “tradition,” even though he has made it known that he has a preference for the older style celebrations. This reminds me of a poster here who said that Pope Benedict is a modernist and a traditionalist at the same time!!!

I was speaking more of doctrine - “current teachings” - rather than novel liturgical practices as found in the average local Parish, such as female altar boys, women readers, the Priest with his back to God, incorrect words of consecration, profane music, etc., etc. etc. Now, if you want to talk about the liturgical novelties that are now enshrined as a part of the new Mass, we can… but I was questioning to the new (novel) teachings that the Priest referred to.

BTW, if you would like to know all that the Church currently teaches you will find it in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Then I’ll ask you, what are the “current teachings” found in the new Catechism that the Traditionalists reject?

Don’t forget the content of the post what I was originally responding to. Here it is

Just to wind some people up - a** priest I know pointed out that those who follow what the Church is currently teaching **are the Traditionalists - in that they are following Tradition. Those who are disputing this are Reactionaries.

The topic of the thread is Traditional Catholics, and whether they over-emphasise the fear of God (a better topic would be if too many Novus Ordo Catholics neglect the fear of God, which is actually what is happening). And notice how he begins his post. He says “just to wind some people up”. He then proceeds to say that real traditional Catholics are those who follow what the Church “currently teaches”, and that those who reject these “current teachings” are reactionaries.

Now, the term “reactionary” is almost never used to refer to Liberals or heretics - those who reject what the Church has always taught (and still officially teaches); rather, it is used to refer to Traditionalists - those who reject novel teachings that contradict what the Church has always taught, and who also refuse to accept as true what the Church has formally condemned.

If you would like me to list some of the modern errors (“new teachings”) that have been formally condemned - the ones that the Traditionalists reject - let me know and I’ll give you the error (new teaching) as well as the solemn Papal condemnation of that error.

 

[johnnydigit]

Most Catholics who desire liturgically correct Masses do so not only because they fear God, but also because they love God and wish to give Him only their best.

i want every Mass to be the most perfect, most loving and powerful Mass there ever was because i love God more than anything else. the EF is more conducive to my goal, imo.

however, a perfect EF Mass conducted with parishioners whose hearts are lukewarm loses to an OF Mass full of souls on fire. so, an EF Mass with all souls on fire is ideal!