Do we accept the concept of 'proof' without proof?

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BenSinner

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Before I give myself a headache trying to figure this out by myself, I figured I would just post it on here.

When we believe something to be true, we require proof.

A: “Unicorns exist”
B: “How do you know?”
A: “They just do.”

That wouldn’t be acceptable to believe in Person A’s assertion because he doesn’t offer any proof.

But, don’t we use the same reasoning to believe the concept of 'proof exists?..or do we also rely on proof to believe ‘proof’ exists?
 
GREAT Q

As Informed Catholics we ARE able to prove the majority of our beliefs and practices; BUT there yet remains Doctrines that we ARE to accept on FAITH in and through the Power of the Keys Mt 16:15-19 ; John 17:17-20; Mt 28:18-20; John 20: 30-31; & John 21: 24-25

God Bless you

Patrick
 
Luke 16:31

He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’"

The Devil demands constant proof and arguing to make us weary for he is a superior master of dialectics.
 
Before I give myself a headache trying to figure this out by myself, I figured I would just post it on here.

When we believe something to be true, we require proof.

A: “Unicorns exist”
B: “How do you know?”
A: “They just do.”

That wouldn’t be acceptable to believe in Person A’s assertion because he doesn’t offer any proof.

But, don’t we use the same reasoning to believe the concept of 'proof exists?..or do we also rely on proof to believe ‘proof’ exists?
Not everything can be proven. I think you know what “contingent” means. So, for example, the existence of a contingent entity cannot be proven. If I tell you that there is a white bench in my backyard, you will need to go there to see it by yourself. And that is not a proof.

There might be a proof for something which is necessary. For example, there are proofs in logic, or in mathematics, because logical and mathematical theorems are necessary. But still in those disciplines not everything can be proven. We need some propositions that we call axioms (and we say that their truth is evident), some definitions and some basic and evident inference rules to proceed. Based on them many other propositions can be proven.

A proof is one of those objects whose existence does not need to be proven. A definition is required, and then someone will show you one and will tell you: “this is a proof”. That is all he will be able to do for you in this case.
 
Personally it doesn’t bother me when people demand proof, but you should ask them what proof they require before beginning to answer their question. Their answer will tell you a lot about whether they want an answer or whether they are point scoring with you.
 
You said it in your last sentence. We rely on proof either way. If you think you do not rely on proof, then that itself is proof that you do no rely on proof, and that is proof, which you rely on.
 
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… do we also rely on proof to believe ‘proof’ exists?
I suppose the “easy” answer is within the “correspondence theory” of truth – I.e., that the truth of any claim lies in its correspondence to the way things actually are.

Aristotle’s definition of the truth from his Metaphysics, (1011b25) is as good a starting point as any: “To say of what is that it is not, or of what is not that it is, is false, while to say of what is that it is, and of what is not that it is not, is true”.

The implication is that providing a proof is only necessary for things which are not obviously or self-evidently true or false. We would not require a proof, for example, for snow being white or humans being mortal.

Some things have a permanence about them and are unchanging by nature so those would not be up for debate, once properly understood – well except in post-modern times such as ours. However, some things are changing and may or may not be in the same state at all times. Proofs for such things wouldn’t work because there is not an internal consistency or essential nature about them.

Uncovering the underlying or eternal (timeless) principles of being is the domain of metaphysics. As Aristotle pointed out in Metaphysics (Book II 993b30-31) “The principles of eternal things must be always most true (for they are not merely sometimes true, nor is there any cause of their being, but they themselves are the cause of the being of other things), so that as each thing is in respect of being, so is it in respect of truth.”

The problem isn’t so much the changing nature of being or truth, but the relative capacity or incapacity, disposition or lack of any proper disposition, on the part of those who are self-ascribed “seekers” of truth to apprehend the truth. Motives, preconceptions, vested-interests, fears, pride, etc., all prevent a proper disposition towards the truth. Some may ostensibly require proofs for things which may be self-evident when really they have no inclination to know the actual truth and are merely deflecting or worse. Others may take as obvious to them that which is just very appealing to their self-interest or preconceived notions.

The best you can do is cultivate a proper disposition in yourself and seek to know the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth with all sincerity and use others around you as sounding boards to test your tentative ideas, not assuming necessarily that they have all the answers nor intimacy with the truth that you might lack.

Developing a commitment to the truth above all else is not easy but it beats the alternatives by an infinite degree.

To answer your question…

A proof is, in simple terms, a clarifying statement of the self-evidence of the ontological permanence (truth) of a thing. By stating clearly the “whatness” of a thing and its necessary relationship to being, it’s “thatness” is demonstrated in a way that cannot be denied by any reasonable being but, of course, will always be challenged by those who have no inclination to be rational or truthful. 😉
 
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You have been suckered by the Enlightenment into believing “proof” (and a very narrow meaning at that) is the main way to find truth, certainty and security in your life.

It simply isnt true and is in fact a modern methodolgy and concept only around 400 years old. Before that most educated people operated rather diffefently.

You also need to understand there are different kinds of “truth”.

Definitional truth (a triangle has 3 sides, a unicorn always has a single horn) is different from existential truth (this object is a triangle, unicorns once existed).
 
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