Do we really have to abstain from meat onFridays?

[JCnMe]

1Tim215Mommy… back then the Church required every Friday was meatless/or fish-we gave up other individual things as well for Lent… as you get older-you’ll realize that health recommendations change about every ten years…and no we did not have to pay for a dispensation- my dad would never have put himself first-it was doctors orders…meat and potatoes were the basic meal staples of the day

 

[Elizium23]

Pay for a dispensation? Wha?

 

[JCnMe]

1Tim215Mommy impied/alluded that dispensations could be bought /or rather with the economy dispensations are easy to get “…With economia, dispensations for anything can be received.”

 

[1Tim215Mommy]

1Tim215Mommy impied/alluded that dispensations could be bought /or rather with the economy dispensations are easy to get “…With economia, dispensations for anything can be received.”

You misunderstand economia, maybe there is another word for it in Catholicism? It had nothing to do with money.

 

[JCnMe]

Then I apologize for misreading your intent…:aok:

 

[1Tim215Mommy]

Then I apologize for misreading your intent…:aok:

No worries. Misunderstanding of language is partly to blame for the separation of our Churches.

What Orthodox mean by economia is more like, our spiritual father has the ability to loose us from the canons/rules for a time to tailor for us what is needed at that moment for the benefit of our eternal salvation.

For example: A spiritual father could free an individual from a fast or part of a fast if the priest felt that it was necessary for that particular individual based on a physical condition, like pregnancy or a new adult convert that needs to take baby-steps to get to the point that they will, together with the Orthodox Church, approx. 50% of the year fast from all dairy, meat/fish, eggs, olive oil & wine OR A spiritual father could free a couple to allow them to use NSF to prevent pregnancy for a specific period of time the priest felt that it was necessary based on the emotional, physical or financial situation of the couple.

Does what we mean by economia make sense now? It really has nothing to do with money for us.

 

[concretecamper]

I overheard a Catholic woman speak to a Protestant yesterday saying that Catholics dont really have to abstain on Fridays during Lent, but its nice if you do, since its not a sin because God never instructed to abstain.

I cringed at first, but then it got me thinking…

If abstaining from meat on Fridays during Lent is simply a Discipline and not a matter of Doctrine, then technically it isnt infallible and therefore not binding. So under that, it would appear one doesnt actually have to abstain.

Thoughts?

In fact, abstaining from meat was a penitential practice for every Friday, not just during lent. The US bishops were given approval to substitute some other penitential acts instead of abstaining from meat. Well, it was approved… how many bishops instituted an alternate…Not many.

 

[Tomdstone]

Infallibility has only been used twice in the entire history of the Church by Pius IX and Pius XII. Both had to do with the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Yet there are a ton of other issues that have not been Infallibly declared, but are still binding.

So you would disagree with those here who say that the declaration that women cannot be ordained as priests was infallible?

 

[JCnMe]

1Tim215Mommy … after I settled down- I knew what you meant-…but thank you for explaining it further for others… one of the arguments non believers use against the Church is to comment on how the Church of the past at one time would sell special dispensations to Heaven…so you can see why I went into autopilot instead of thinking it through… I’ll have to blame it on little sleep this week and apologize-I’m not one to jump to conclusions without asking for clarification of intent…have a great day:thumbsup:

 

[johnthebaptist2]

As a Catholic, durning Lent I make a Sactifce to not it meat on Fridays,to show God that I love his son Jesus,and I,am sorry for offending him.and to thank God for sending his only son to save us.

 

[Thorns]

So you would disagree with those here who say that the declaration that women cannot be ordained as priests was infallible?

For me personally, there is a lot of confusion as to what is fallible or infallible, since the Popes never actually signify when theyre speaking, or about to speak, infallibly.

Fromy view, it seems like if we like what he says, its infallible. If not, it was just his opinion.

 

[Silver_Thread]

Why do you take it as a chore? Consider it a privilege to make a sacrifice.

It is my understanding that we are free to substitute “fasting” from meat for some other form of fasting. For instance, something that really has a hold on my life and I chose to abstain from it. What good does “meat fasting” serve to a vegetarian? I always looked at fasting from meat as a “minimal” action. I’m no expert on the lives of the saints, but I would bet that they would hardly be quibbling over meatless Fridays!

 

[Elizium23]

It is my understanding that we are free to substitute “fasting” from meat for some other form of fasting. For instance, something that really has a hold on my life and I chose to abstain from it. What good does “meat fasting” serve to a vegetarian? I always looked at fasting from meat as a “minimal” action. I’m no expert on the lives of the saints, but I would bet that they would hardly be quibbling over meatless Fridays!

It depends on where you live. In areas where no complementary norms are established, the universal canon applies which means we must abstain from meat on every Friday, no substitutions permitted. If you live in an area which has designated something other than meat as the Friday abstinence (do these places exist?) then you follow that law. In the United States where complementary norms* have been established by the USCCB, the meat abstinence only applies to Fridays inside Lent, Ash Wednesday and Good Friday, and outside of Lent, we have the option of meat abstinence or some other penance at our own discretion.

Don’t forget that this is an international, albeit English-speaking, forum, and ecclesiastical laws that apply consist of more than the universal ones.

*I actually couldn’t find the abstinence law under the Complementary Norms section of the USCCB website, so I don’t know if this is particular law or what it is exactly called.

 

[Theophorus]

For me personally, there is a lot of confusion as to what is fallible or infallible, since the Popes never actually signify when theyre speaking, or about to speak, infallibly.

Fromy view, it seems like if we like what he says, its infallible. If not, it was just his opinion.

There are clear guidelines as to when the Popes Speak infallibly:
Focusing first of all on Ex Cathedra invocations of Infallibility Vatican I laid down the following guidelines:

1. 
   *]“the Roman Pontiff”
   *]“speaks ex cathedra” (“that is, when in the discharge of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, and by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority”…)
   *]“he defines”
   *]“that a doctrine concerning faith or morals”
   *]“must be held by the whole Church”
   
   This was most recently invoked in 1950, by Pope Pius XII in Munificentissimus Deus,
   Pope Pius XII:
   

   By the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by our own authority, we pronounce, declare, and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma: that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory…Hence if anyone, which God forbid, should dare willfully to deny or to call into doubt that which We have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith.

   The Pope in communion with the bishops of the world can also exercise an ordinary and infallible teaching office when he expounds the Tradition of the faith in a definitive manner. This method is less obvious and has needed to be clarified after the fact on several occasions(such as with Ordinatio Sacerdotalis which was later clarified to be part of the ordinary infallible Magisterium of the Church and accordingly was to be held definitively, as belonging to the deposit of faith)
   
   In any case while not referring to infallibility Vatican II said that
   
   

   Religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. His mind and will in the matter may be known either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking

 

[PJM]

=Thorns;11860503]I overheard a Catholic woman speak to a Protestant yesterday saying that Catholics dont really have to abstain on Fridays during Lent, but its nice if you do, since its not a sin because God never instructed to abstain.

I cringed at first, but then it got me thinking…

If abstaining from meat on Fridays during Lent is simply a Discipline and not a matter of Doctrine, then technically it isnt infallible and therefore not binding. So under that, it would appear one doesnt actually have to abstain.

Thoughts?

Shes speaking from an onknowing VERY human perspectivre.

READ Mt. 16:18-19
The terms binding and lossning at that time and place was GRANTING unlimited and unimpeded Governance; which Christ HAD to grant as He knew He would be crucified and wanted his church to continue. Mk.16:1415 & Mt. 28: 16-20

God Bless you,
Patrick

 

[Aramis]

Do we really have to abstain from meat on Fridays?

My understanding is that we do.

In the US, an indult exists for the Roman Rite allowing substitution of some other penitential practice outside of Lent. According to the USCCB website, abstinence is mandated on ALL fridays of lent, but fasting is not; fasting is required on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday, and strongly encouraged for Holy Saturday.
USCCB:

Ash Wednesday and Good Friday are obligatory days of fasting and abstinence for Catholics. In addition, Fridays during Lent are obligatory days of abstinence.
For members of the Latin Catholic Church, the norms on fasting are obligatory from age 18 until age 59. When fasting, a person is permitted to eat one full meal. Two smaller meals may also be taken, but not to equal a full meal. The norms concerning abstinence from meat are binding upon members of the Latin Catholic Church from age 14 onwards.

Members of the Eastern Catholic Churches are to observe the particular law of their own sui iuris Church.

If possible, the fast on Good Friday is continued until the Easter Vigil (on Holy Saturday night) as the “paschal fast” to honor the suffering and death of the Lord Jesus, and to prepare ourselves to share more fully and to celebrate more readily his Resurrection.

Note that the Bishop may dispense for good cause… but blanket dispensations are rare.