Do you believe you would have ever gotten married if you hadn't had premarital sex?

[MarcoPolo]

Based on the OP’s posting history, I don’t think he’s looking for loopholes or anything.

You know me well.

My guess is it’s an intellectual curiosity to gauge how much pre-marital sex can cloud our decision making process.

It is an intellectual curiosity, although I was not trying to specifically suggest anyone here made a clouded decision. Although, those who are familiar with my blog know that I wrote 4 ways premarital sex is harmful. One of those harms is that the chemical releases associated with sex, such as dopamine, can create an addiction and increase the potential for the sexually active to make a clouded commitment with regard to marriage.

Although I think candid answers are often better, I’ll state a loose purpose of the thread since so many were confused. In today’s culture, it seems that there are an abundance of single people who have been excluded from marriage because they refused pre-marital sex. You can see in this thread some examples, and I would speculate it is worse now than even 10 or 20 years ago. There is a topsy-turvy effect at work, where those who prepare properly for marriage are more likely to suffer the absence of that vocation, and those who do not prepare properly for marriage end up getting the vocation. The virgins are the “freaks,” rejected by the masses because you can’t “test drive” them.The culture’s normalization of pre-marital sex extends beyond the two people who consent. The harm ripples outside of them and into the lives of those who will not engage in pre-marital sex in at least 2 ways: 1. by creating the illusion that they are to be avoided since they won’t consent to what “everyone else” is doing; and 2. by severely shrinking the pool of potential mates for those persons. And those married persons who avoided pre-marital sex have helped like-minded singles.

None of this is to point fingers at anyone, as even the virgins have their own sins that have contributed to this fallen world. But anyway, that’s kind of a perspective to chew on.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

Elizabeth I also seemed to have a fair amount of alone time with her various gentleman friends. Ditto Catherine the Great of Russia.

Well, I must confess I’m far from an English historian, though I do find many of the historical documentaries and dramas about royalty to be interesting, I realize the accuracy of much of this is suspect. I really haven’t come across much hard evidence either way regarding Elizabeth I’s sex life, if any. (She also did have personal as well as political reasons for not marrying. What happened to her own mother, Anne Boleyn, for example. Or her sister, Mary Tudor, and her unhappy marriage to the King of Spain. Or her likely being a victim of sexual abuse by her almost-step-father, Thomas Seymour, who married Catherine Parr, the widow of Henry VIII.)

The problem is that most of the historical material from that era was produced by sources biased either toward or against the subject of their histories. Even when it comes to Robert Dudley, who is often portrayed as her lover in fictional depictions of the “Virgin Queen”, many of the rumors about him seem to have been spread by jealous suitors who wanted to marry the Queen themselves.

Also, Catherine the Great was a little different, not just because the Tsar in Russia had much more power than the monarchs of England, but also, because she was a widow for most of her political career, and the chastity of widows have always seemed to be considered less important than that of a never-married maiden.

Of course, a widow having unmarried sex is sinful as well. But even in the Bible, Ruth was a widow when she met Boaz. I don’t know if the kind of match-making Naomi did would have been considered socially acceptable for a virgin bride. I also am not convinced that Ruth and Boaz actually had sex before their marriage, though they certainly spent time alone together.

I should also point out that in an era where most marriages were arranged, one of the only ways a woman could get out of an unwanted marriage and marry her own choice of spouse, was to deliberately put herself in a compromising position, so that her parents had no choice but to let her marry her lover, rather than risk social humiliation by having her chastity publicly questioned.

 

[MarcoPolo]

So, I think the OP is trying to explore the validity of the idea that “In this day and age, if you don’t have sex, no one will want to date you, and if no one wants to date you, you’ll never get married.”

What I personally find of-putting about this question, though, is that it seems to be assuming that “everyone on CAF had sex before marriage”, which obviously is not the case.

Your analysis is sound. And, agreed, and obviously the question would not apply to everyone on CAF. I would expect here, of all places, would have the fewest.

 

[MarcoPolo]

In fact, I don’t think any of my friends…from high school to now (including my devote Catholic friends) who were virgins on their wedding night.

This is, unfortunately, similar to my anecdotal perspective. Although I can name a few friends who waited, they are overwhelmingly the exception.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

There is a topsy-turvy effect at work, where those who prepare properly for marriage are more likely to suffer the absence of that vocation, and those who do not prepare properly for marriage end up getting the vocation.

I agree with you for the most part, except that you did not mention, that just because someone gets married does not mean they will** stay **married. I wouldn’t say that K-Dash’s first marriage counts as her “getting the vocation” at all. Though she did get a fancy party out of it.

I know statistics can be manipulated in many ways, but it seems pretty rare that people who “did it the right way” before marriage wind up divorced. Certainly not a guarantee, and much like NFP adherence, one can argue that Catholics (or Christians in general) devout enough to be virgins at marriage, likely also believe marriage is for life even if it becomes miserable.

Also, while it was apparently not the main reason for your question, it certainly can happen that couples who become sexually active are so blinded by their hormones, that they wind up married to people unsuitable to have long-term relationships with. I think the chance is quite high that such a couple may indeed marry, but won’t stay married.

Also, I’d like to discourage the general attitude some Christians have, that marriage to an ideal spouse, is some kind of reward for being a good Christian.

 

[MarcoPolo]

I agree with you for the most part, except that you did not mention, that just because someone gets married does not mean they will** stay **married.

I consider that a separate issue beyond the scope of this thought exercise, but obviously, you are correct, that marriages entered into by virgins are statistically more stable and joyous.

Also, I’d like to discourage the general attitude some Christians have, that marriage to an ideal spouse, is some kind of reward for being a good Christian.

That is probably better directed at Christians who espouse the “Prosperity Gospel.”

 

[pensmama87]

You might really enjoy watching “The Six Wives of Henry VIII.”

imdb.com/title/tt0066714/

I’m a sucker for this kind of stuff and it is probably not best to encourage me.

 

[Xantippe]

I should also point out that in an era where most marriages were arranged, one of the only ways a woman could get out of an unwanted marriage and marry her own choice of spouse, was to deliberately put herself in a compromising position, so that her parents had no choice but to let her marry her lover, rather than risk social humiliation by having her chastity publicly questioned.

Right.

 

[Xantippe]

I’m a sucker for this kind of stuff and it is probably not best to encourage me.

But it’s educational!

 

[Xantippe]

This is, unfortunately, similar to my anecdotal perspective. Although I can name a few friends who waited, they are overwhelmingly the exception.

Bear in mind that a lot of people don’t believe in washing their clean laundry in public.

I certainly don’t.

In real life, the only people that have much of an idea of my premarital history are my doctors and my husband. Ditto contraception or non-contraception. It just doesn’t come up.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

That is probably better directed at Christians who espouse the “Prosperity Gospel.”

Well, I’ve seen too many “Why am I still single when I pray the Rosary every day and haven’t even French-kissed anyone” posts by Catholics to comfortably state that doesn’t apply to them. Some even state they are questioning God, because He hasn’t brought them a spouse yet.

So, though most Catholics do seem to reject the idea that financial reward can be expected for piety, I don’t think that’s quite the case when marriage is concerned. unfortunately.

 

[Xantippe]

Well, I’ve seen too many “Why am I still single when I pray the Rosary every day and haven’t even French-kissed anyone” posts by Catholics to comfortably state that doesn’t apply to them. Some even state they are questioning God, because He hasn’t brought them a spouse yet.

So, though most Catholics do seem to reject the idea that financial reward can be expected for piety, I don’t think that’s quite the case when marriage is concerned. unfortunately.

Right.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Well, I’ve seen too many “Why am I still single when I pray the Rosary every day and haven’t even French-kissed anyone” posts by Catholics to comfortably state that doesn’t apply to them. Some even state they are questioning God, because He hasn’t brought them a spouse yet.

So, though most Catholics do seem to reject the idea that financial reward can be expected for piety, I don’t think that’s quite the case when marriage is concerned. unfortunately.

The cry “why hast Thou forsaken me?” is not native to single Catholics. It is Christ’s own words, whose prayer to have the cup removed from him was not “answered” in the way it was worded. Scripture teaches “Ask and you shall receive.” As children of God, if we don’t have a certain expectation of God’s response, then there is something amiss. We should have a certain expectation that the Father will hear our prayers if we ask for something good. Don’t you think? The difficulty is grasping the mystery of how prayer is sometimes answered. I don’t know that some Catholics think God is “required” to answer as they petition, but rather asking “why.” There is a tension between being a child of God petitioning the Father for an answer and the form of that answer. Also, this is a fallen, perverted, deranged world. Justice is often thwarted here. If a pious soul prayed for something in part prevented by the barrage of flaming arrows in this world, that is that soul on the cross with Christ, suffering an injustice. The frustration could indeed come from a deeper recognition of injustice at work.

This is the essence of Christ’s cry from the cross. Sure, you could find some that are demanding, but Catholics who follow Church teaching would be in line with the mystery of suffering. If not for Christ not getting his prayer “answered,” what example have we?