Do you fear the rise of Islam in the West?

[Paddy_Walker]

bigman:

Law must be law and religion must be religion.

yees, but it is society that makes the laws; and, say if the demographics change then sharia law becomes possible as it is majority rule, ok.
secular democracies are not capable of fighting it as it would be what the democracy wanted.
you need christianity, and you need a strong christianity to protect your liberty, etc.

 

[Bezant]

And what do the conflicts between Copts and the rest of the Egyptian population boil down to? Friendly rivalry? Soccer?

The fact is not the problem, so much as how you justify such a narrow claim.

Hardly what? They exist. They’re called* Zones Urbaines Sensibles*. Look them up.

They are quite clearly under French jurisdiction, no matter what the state of things are on the ground.

Care to demonstrate how Muslims in Europe are “discriminated minorities”?

You mentioned the Zones Urbanes. Why are ethnic and religious minorities grossly overrepresented in these areas?

And I think you’re being rather disingenuous with your assertion that Islam has been in Europe “for centuries.” Invasion and occupation by Islamic powers does not mean that Islam is a part of Europe, and you implying that because Islamic powers have controlled various parts of Europe over the centuries that that somehow makes it “homegrown” or European is completely absurd. Plain and simple. As a matter of fact, it proves the opposite, because the reaction of Europeans has always been to treat it as a foreign enemy. That is why there was the Reconquista. That is why the Siege of Vienna in 1683 was considered a Christian victory against Islam. The Siege of Malta in 1565. The Battle of Lepanto in 1571. All the same thing.

The immigration of Muslims to Europe is an unprecedented phenomenon. There has never been such a huge influx of Muslims into European countries in such a fashion.

I think it’s fairly obvious that when two cultures are in proximity, particularly over decades and centuries, they mutually influence each other. Take and make of it what you will.

Your argument, aside from being absurdly selective, takes for granted that Christianity is native to European culture. It’s a faulty assumption, considering that Christianity is a Middle Eastern faith quite distinct from the “homegrown” pagan religions, and was often spread by force.

But I was not thinking much about Al-Andalus or even the Ottoman Empire. When people talk about Muslims in Europe, they never consider their Albanian neighbours, the French-born grandchildren of Moroccan immigrants, or my best mate, who is of Pakistani descent but was born and raised in Bradford (he has the accent to prove it). All of them are E.U. nationals, but this discourse often talks about Muslims as though they are new foreigners, even infiltrators. It’s very ignorant and bigoted.

 

[fkjuliano]

The fact is not the problem, so much as how you justify such a narrow claim.

This is a typical attitude among Islamophiles. The problem is never Islam but those crass enough to report something negative about it.

They are quite clearly under French jurisdiction, no matter what the state of things are on the ground.

The point being?

You mentioned the Zones Urbanes. Why are ethnic and religious minorities grossly overrepresented in these areas?

There is a worldwide pattern of places under the sway of Mohammedanism being poor and squalid. The only exceptions are locales flooded with unearned wealth (e.g., Qatar, United Arab Emirates, etc.) and those where a captive non-Muslim population can be exploited for taxation and expertise (e.g., Malaysia, Lebanon)

I think it’s fairly obvious that when two cultures are in proximity, particularly over decades and centuries, they mutually influence each other. Take and make of it what you will.

That fortunately wasn’t the case in Western Europe until recently.

Your argument, aside from being absurdly selective, takes for granted that Christianity is native to European culture. It’s a faulty assumption, considering that Christianity is a Middle Eastern faith quite distinct from the “homegrown” pagan religions, and was often spread by force.

Preposterous. European culture, such as it has existed for 1,700 years, was molded by Christianity, more specifically by the Catholic Church. That classical civilization and the northern European barbarians were pagan is hardly relevant.

But I was not thinking much about Al-Andalus or even the Ottoman Empire. When people talk about Muslims in Europe, they never consider their Albanian neighbours,

Under the leadership of Skanderbeg, Albanians resisted the Ottomans more fiercely than anyone else. For that, the Turks instituted a policy of genocide against them, which largely accomplished its goal. Most of the remnant of the Albanian population accepted Islam, though others emigrated or took refuge in remote mountain areas. The point is that Islam among Albanians is an Ottoman legacy, so you can’t separate the two. By the way, I’m partly of Albanian (Catholic) descent.

the French-born grandchildren of Moroccan immigrants,

I’m sure some of those are decent, hard-working people and not a few are only nominal Muslims. But all too many are precisely the sort of people responsible for the zones sensibles being sensibles.

or my best mate, who is of Pakistani descent but was born and raised in Bradford (he has the accent to prove it).

Surely, your mate is a fine bloke, but this type of anecdotal, sentimentalized argument is foolish at best. You mention his Bradford accent as if that meant something. Well, it doesn’t. And if this were, say, a trial, this is how I would demonstrate it:

“Now, Mr. Bezant, I’m not too familiar with all the different accents of the British Isles. I do understand, though, that Bradford is an industrial town in West Yorkshire. So is Leeds–I mean, it’s an industrial town there in West Yorkshire. And Leeds is where all four men who perpetrated the 7/7 terrorist bombings were from–three of whom being Muslims of Pakistani descent and the fourth a Jamaican convert. Those attacks, of course, killed 52 innocent people in London. Now, Mr. Bezant, since you do seem know something about West Yorkshire-type accents, is a Bradford accent much different from a Leeds accent?”

All of them are E.U. nationals,

A meaningless legalism. Giving somebody a passport doesn’t change him or her in any way. The E.U. is going the way of the USSR and it’s well deserved, too.

but this discourse often talks about Muslims as though they are new foreigners, even infiltrators. It’s very ignorant and bigoted.

From my perspective, you’re the one who appears ignorant about the history and character of Islam and bigoted against those who don’t hold to the politically correct line on it.

 

[Cathrien]

I don’t think so that it’s really an issue as a lot of people accepting Islam as their religion and faith. As everyone has his will to do anything and do whatever he thinks better for him. And specially religion is matter of mental and spiritual satisfaction, where we can’t bother anyone.

That’s what i think about it, What you think, please give your ideas and recommendations about the topic,
aged care tweed heads

 

[oldcatholicguy]

This is a typical attitude among Islamophiles. The problem is never Islam but those crass enough to report something negative about it.

The point being?

There is a worldwide pattern of places under the sway of Mohammedanism being poor and squalid. The only exceptions are locales flooded with unearned wealth (e.g., Qatar, United Arab Emirates, etc.) and those where a captive non-Muslim population can be exploited for taxation and expertise (e.g., Malaysia, Lebanon)

That fortunately wasn’t the case in Western Europe until recently.

Preposterous. European culture, such as it has existed for 1,700 years, was molded by Christianity, more specifically by the Catholic Church. That classical civilization and the northern European barbarians were pagan is hardly relevant.

Under the leadership of Skanderbeg, Albanians resisted the Ottomans more fiercely than anyone else. For that, the Turks instituted a policy of genocide against them, which largely accomplished its goal. Most of the remnant of the Albanian population accepted Islam, though others emigrated or took refuge in remote mountain areas. The point is that Islam among Albanians is an Ottoman legacy, so you can’t separate the two. By the way, I’m partly of Albanian (Catholic) descent.

I’m sure some of those are decent, hard-working people and not a few are only nominal Muslims. But all too many are precisely the sort of people responsible for the zones sensibles being sensibles.

Surely, your mate is a fine bloke, but this type of anecdotal, sentimentalized argument is foolish at best. You mention his Bradford accent as if that meant something. Well, it doesn’t. And if this were, say, a trial, this is how I would demonstrate it:

“Now, Mr. Bezant, I’m not too familiar with all the different accents of the British Isles. I do understand, though, that Bradford is an industrial town in West Yorkshire. So is Leeds–I mean, it’s an industrial town there in West Yorkshire. And Leeds is where all four men who perpetrated the 7/7 terrorist bombings were from–three of whom being Muslims of Pakistani descent and the fourth a Jamaican convert. Those attacks, of course, killed 52 innocent people in London. Now, Mr. Bezant, since you do seem know something about West Yorkshire-type accents, is a Bradford accent much different from a Leeds accent?”

A meaningless legalism. Giving somebody a passport doesn’t change him or her in any way. The E.U. is going the way of the USSR and it’s well deserved, too.

From my perspective, you’re the one who appears ignorant about the history and character of Islam and bigoted against those who don’t hold to the politically correct line on it.

Bigoted would be someone who uses an offensive and inaccurate term to describe Islam (Mohammadism) and ignorant would be someone who selectively looks at what regions in the world are “poor and squalid” (you seem to have forgotten about very non-Muslim Central America, South America, most of Africa, and regions in SE Asia).

 

[doormouse73]

This is a typical attitude among Islamophiles. The problem is never Islam but those crass enough to report something negative about it.

The point being?

There is a worldwide pattern of places under the sway of Mohammedanism being poor and squalid. The only exceptions are locales flooded with unearned wealth (e.g., Qatar, United Arab Emirates, etc.) and those where a captive non-Muslim population can be exploited for taxation and expertise (e.g., Malaysia, Lebanon)

That fortunately wasn’t the case in Western Europe until recently.

Preposterous. European culture, such as it has existed for 1,700 years, was molded by Christianity, more specifically by the Catholic Church. That classical civilization and the northern European barbarians were pagan is hardly relevant.

Under the leadership of Skanderbeg, Albanians resisted the Ottomans more fiercely than anyone else. For that, the Turks instituted a policy of genocide against them, which largely accomplished its goal. Most of the remnant of the Albanian population accepted Islam, though others emigrated or took refuge in remote mountain areas. The point is that Islam among Albanians is an Ottoman legacy, so you can’t separate the two. By the way, I’m partly of Albanian (Catholic) descent.

I’m sure some of those are decent, hard-working people and not a few are only nominal Muslims. But all too many are precisely the sort of people responsible for the zones sensibles being sensibles.

Surely, your mate is a fine bloke, but this type of anecdotal, sentimentalized argument is foolish at best. You mention his Bradford accent as if that meant something. Well, it doesn’t. And if this were, say, a trial, this is how I would demonstrate it:

“Now, Mr. Bezant, I’m not too familiar with all the different accents of the British Isles. I do understand, though, that Bradford is an industrial town in West Yorkshire. So is Leeds–I mean, it’s an industrial town there in West Yorkshire. And Leeds is where all four men who perpetrated the 7/7 terrorist bombings were from–three of whom being Muslims of Pakistani descent and the fourth a Jamaican convert. Those attacks, of course, killed 52 innocent people in London. Now, Mr. Bezant, since you do seem know something about West Yorkshire-type accents, is a Bradford accent much different from a Leeds accent?”

A meaningless legalism. Giving somebody a passport doesn’t change him or her in any way. The E.U. is going the way of the USSR and it’s well deserved, too.

From my perspective, you’re the one who appears ignorant about the history and character of Islam and bigoted against those who don’t hold to the politically correct line on it.

 

[doormouse73]

Bigoted would be someone who uses an offensive and inaccurate term to describe Islam (Mohammadism) and ignorant would be someone who selectively looks at what regions in the world are “poor and squalid” (you seem to have forgotten about very non-Muslim Central America, South America, most of Africa, and regions in SE Asia).

Bigoted would be someone who uses an offensive and inaccurate term to describe Islam (Mohammadism)

would i be a bigot if i said islam s real name is mohammedism?
or would i be a bigot if i said to spread islam in the world we have to use mohammedism?

and ignorant would be someone who selectively looks at what regions in the world are “poor and squalid” (you seem to have forgotten about very non-Muslim Central America, South America, most of Africa, and regions in SE Asia).

with all due respect,the title of this thread is about Do you fear the rise of Islam in the West?..what has this got to do with the quoted paragraph above?

would it be you nit picking in the post to find mischief ?

 

[fkjuliano]

Bigoted would be someone who uses an offensive and inaccurate term to describe Islam (Mohammadism) and ignorant would be someone who selectively looks at what regions in the world are “poor and squalid” (you seem to have forgotten about very non-Muslim Central America, South America, most of Africa, and regions in SE Asia).

Among the countless demands made by Muslims of non-Muslims is that we no longer call them by the traditional European term for the followers of Muhammad or Mohammed, which is, logically enough, “Mohammedan”.

I see no reason to comply with that demand. I am not afraid of Muslim thuggery nor do I much care what they think or want. In fact, I care precisely as much about the followers of Muhammad being offended by the term “Mohammedan” as I do by the followers of Hitler being offended by the use of “Nazi” or “Hitlerite” instead of “National Socialist”. And my lack of care about offending one group or the other is not coincidental: I have the same rather low opinion of both. The bottom line is this: if Mohammedans don’t want to be called “Mohammedans”, then they should quit following Muhammad.

And claim to the contrary notwithstanding, I did not say that all poor countries are Islamic. (See, as a free man who doesn’t live under the writ of Shariah I use whatever term best fits the sentence.) What I did say is that all Islamic countries, save the ones endowed with great unearned wealth (i.e., oil) or that exploit the talents of non-Muslim minorities, are poor and squalid. Failing to distinguish between those two statements betrays an inability to think logically, but then again that is to be expected from someone who sympathizes with Islam.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Please observe CAF rules in regard to charity toward non-Catholic religions.

 

[fkjuliano]

Please observe CAF rules in regard to charity toward non-Catholic religions.

“Charity” here means no criticism is allowed and truth is no defense. A disingenuous defense of Islam and of the veritable Muslim invasion of Europe currently underway is not deemed uncharitable, not even when someone with an opposing point of view is called “ignorant and bigoted”. However, a response, to which the name caller could not come up with an adequate reply, gets taken down.

Clearly, the Catholic.com forum is as much plagued by political correctness as any part of the Church.

Is there a way to appeal rulings made by Mr. Hilbert, or does he have final say?

 

[Novart]

What are your views on the demographic shifts in Western countries and the rise of Islam? Do you think this is a threat to Christianity? Do you think that Muslim immigration needs to be stopped? What is to be done?

I fear, more by far, the rise of the absence of critical thinking in assessing news and views, in particular, our own views, including blind faith.