Do you have to be in line with every Church teaching to be saved? (ex. prayer to saints)

  • Thread starter Thread starter mimi05
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
M

mimi05

Guest
I am discussing with a Protestant online, and he brought that the Catholic Church says that you must believe in the prayers to the saints and Mary to be saved. I wasn’t sure about this, but I couldn’t find anything by my google search, so I thought I would ask here if that is true.
 
Question. If one rejected and thought the Church was wrong on praying to the saints, why would the teaching on if you can go to heaven hold any water?

In other words, if you reject a central and core teaching of the faith what does it matter what the faith says about your salvation?

And by the way, no Catholic has to pray to any saint if they choose not to or aren’t comfortable with it.
 
Last edited:
You seem to have an undertone that if one belief of Catholicism is false that means that religion is untrue. I am unsure on this, and if any one has any thoughts, please chime in.
It may not matter to a person who has rejected Catholicism, but there can be genuine curiosity or a desire to understand a religion’s teaching.
Also I am Catholic, so I want to know my own religion’s teaching, as well as curiosity for other’s sake.
 
mimi05 said:
You seem to have an undertone that if one belief of Catholicism is false that means that religion is untrue. I am unsure on this, and if any one has any thoughts, please chime in.
It may not matter to a person who has rejected Catholicism, but there can be genuine curiosity or a desire to understand a religion’s teaching.
Also I am Catholic, so I want to know my own religion’s teaching, as well as curiosity for other’s sake.
Click to expand...
I think what @redcatholic is pointing out, is that Catholicism is either all true, or not true at all. Catholicism teaches that it is the one Church, founded and preserved by God Himself, who protects her to infallibly teach truth on matters of faith and morals, and not to bind the Church to belief in error.

There’s no wiggle room for picking and choosing which official teachings are true/false. Either they’re all true, or else anything that’s true would only be coincidentally true, like a broken clock is right twice a day.

It’s important, of course, to distinguish between Tradition and tradition. And between official unchangeable teachings and mere changeable disciplines. Etc.

But if we come across any particular teaching which the Church asserts we must believe, and we categorically refuse to assent to it? There’s an underlying issue there. Because in that case we would not just be refusing assent to one teaching: we’d be refusing assent to the whole underlying belief that the Church has authority to teach.

Now, we don’t have to know every teaching. And we’re allowed to ‘wrestle’ with teachings (the name Israel itself means ‘He who wrestles with God’). But while wrestling, we still have to assent to each teaching, even before understanding why it’s true. It’s commendable to go through and learn why it’s true (and that can actually be really important for helping others, through apologetics and evangelization!) – but for each of us the first step is at least to be able to say that we trust that the Church is who Jesus said she is, and we trust that the Holy Spirit is protecting her as Jesus prayed He would. Details are details, but that’s the starting place.
 
Also, do you have a specific objection related to something to do with praying to the saints?

There are lots of threads here addressing that topic, and I’m sure folks could also point you to podcasts/articles to help you understand the Church’s position on the topic.

It’s not the Church’s position, for example, that you personally are obliged to pray to a saint to be saved.




etc. It’s a really common topic; I hope you find whatever answer you personally need to assist with whatever your personal question is 🙂 Catholic.com is a wonderful resource.
 
Tell the Protestant that Christians prayed for the intercession of saints for over a thousand years before Luther came along. So history is on the Catholic side. And that Protestants did a great disservice to common people by removing from them our Heavenly helpers.
 
Thank you. This has helped. But now I have another question, do you need to be Catholic to be saved?
 
neophyte said:
48.png
mimi05:
…you must believe in the prayers to the saints and Mary to be saved.
Click to expand...
I don’t know what is meant by that.
Click to expand...
I meant that do you need to believe that it isn’t idolatrous to pray to the saints and Mary in heaven in order to obtain salvation. I now have that question somewhat answered, and now ask if you need to be Catholic to be saved? Any incites you have would be appreciated.
 
Anyone who is saved is saved by being incorporated into the Catholic Church, even if incompletely, even if unknowingly; they are holding on to a life raft being towed by the barque of Peter.
 
I knew a Christian protestant lady who, after her husband died, used to go to the cemetery frequently and talk to her late husband, telling him all her problems. If she could talk to him in this way, I don’t see how she would have a problem talking to Jesus’ mother.
 
It is good to know one’s religion. However, you seem to use terminology ‘being ‘saved’ for example that is very specifically Protestant. Since you are talking with a Protestant and quite likely that is the terminology he or she used, why not ask what that person means by the term? That will help you, as you check out the catechism for example, to be able to understand what is common to Protestants and Catholics, and what is different.

Some Protestants use the term ‘saved’ and believe that ‘all’ that a person needs to do is recite the Sinners prayer. Some believe in a kind of ‘double predestination’ and have various check lists “TULIP etc to determine who may be ‘saved’.

Catholics believe in a kind of continuous salvation. Every day as we live our Faith we have been saved (through Christ) and we are saved (through the Eucharist, through prayer, through obedience to God, love of Him and love of neighbor) and we will BE saved (at our judgment at death when we will choose to accept, once for all, God’s free gift of salvation which we have spent our time on earth in cooperating with Him).

So we have a kind of fullness in our salvation whereby we have salvation in Christ Jesus.
 
mimi05 said:
I meant that do you need to believe that it isn’t idolatrous to pray to the saints and Mary in heaven in order to obtain salvation. I now have that question somewhat answered, and now ask if you need to be Catholic to be saved?
Click to expand...
I suggest that you thoughtfully study the Catechism, paragraphs 817-820 and 838-848.
 
According to the Catholic Church, yes, you will be Catholic when you are “saved” but not a single non Catholic a Christian agrees.
 
There are certain things that if the Church is wrong or false on then of course the Church would be unable to teach the truth! And praying to saints would fall into that category. If the Church is false about this and it’s a violation of the first commandment then why would you believe any of it? And I’ll point out intercession if the saints predates any single Protestant faith. So at one point for over a thousand years all Christian belief prayed to saints. How could any Protestant faith declare and damn thousands of years of Christians? Many Protestants don’t pray to saints not because they really believe it to be wrong, but rather because it gives power to the Catholic Church which has declared the majority of saints.
 
Thomas Acquinas said something about this. Perhaps that’s why your friend was alluding to. I’m not a knowledgeable but it was that if you don’t believe an article of the faith you believe nothing. Perhaps someone more intellectual and knowledgeable can comment. I’m sure he means dogmas. So you have to believe the dogmas pertaining to Mary of course. As for being saved outside the Catholic church, everyone Baptised correctly is entitled to become catholic so they may not be in the body of the church but can be in the soul of the church so can be recognised by desire like the repentant thief if they are repentant but only God knows that at the time of death.
 
Last edited:
It depends if one is culpable for the error. Innocent mistake is not a sin if one cares about the truth. On the other hand, heresy–by which one substitutes his own judgment for the authority of God’s revelation–destroys faith and excludes from salvation (if persevered in to the end of course).

St. Augustine:
But though the doctrine which men hold be false and perverse, if they do not maintain it with passionate obstinacy, especially when they have not devised it by the rashness of their own presumption, but have accepted it from parents who had been misguided and had fallen into error, and if they are with anxiety seeking the truth, and are prepared to be set right when they have found it, such men are not to be counted heretics.
CHURCH FATHERS: Letter 43 (St. Augustine)
Click to expand...
In such a case, faith in Christ covers any innocent errors about particular articles of faith, since Christ Himself embodies all of revelation (He is the way, the truth, and the life). As the Catechism puts it, Christ “is the Father’s one, perfect and unsurpassable Word. In him he has said everything; there will be no other word than this one” (CCC 65).

On the other hand, when one is culpable it does exclude:

Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum 9:
But he who dissents even in one point from divinely revealed truth absolutely rejects all faith, since he thereby refuses to honour God as the supreme truth and the formal motive of faith. “In many things they are with me, in a few things not with me; but in those few things in which they are not with me the many things in which they are will not profit them” (S. Augustinus in Psal. liv., n. 19). And this indeed most deservedly; for they, who take from Christian doctrine what they please, lean on their own judgments, not on faith; and not “bringing into captivity every understanding unto the obedience of Christ” (2 Cor. x., 5), they more truly obey themselves than God. “You, who believe what you like, believe yourselves rather than the gospel” (S. Augustinus, lib. xvii., Contra Faustum Manichaeum, cap. 3).
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
mimi05 said:
Thank you. This has helped. But now I have another question, do you need to be Catholic to be saved?
Click to expand...
There is only one Ark going to the other side. There are many on it who didn’t sign up for a ticket. But they are still on the Ark. I hope that helps.
There are many questions about the why and how, and those open up a huge mystery as to the application of God’s grace to folks who aren’t specifically baptized into the Church.

Key concept: while the sacrament of baptism is normative for salvation, God is not bound by sacraments.
 
Last edited:
mimi05 said:
You seem to have an undertone that if one belief of Catholicism is false that means that religion is untrue
Click to expand...
If one dogma or doctrine is false then, as Scripture says, our faith is in vain and we are the most pitiable of all men.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top