Do you think that the church will ever accept gay marriage?

[Realist]

You have asked a very valid question; most non-heterosexual people stay out of the Catholic Church; instead they turn to other Christian Churches, Buddhism, Hinduism or other non-Abrahamic religions. Or, some are Atheist. As I see it, there are only two answers for the few (and we are talking about very few people), who step inside a Catholic Church:

1. They want to be part of the Catholic Church so that they can destroy her from within

What do you think the second reason might be?

See, I’m not really sure. Maybe they grew up Catholic and believe the Catholic Church is one true church? So even though the church disagrees with one of their overarching life choices–assuming they are having sex–, they still feel drawn to what they consider Truth? But I have no idea. I’ve never actually met a gay Catholic. Maybe a gay priest or two, but not, you know, “practicing” gay. (“Practicing” is such an odd word to describe someone having sex.)

 

[Lycorth]

Civilizational collapse, its history and future, is really too big a subject to be dealt with in an Internet forum.
(I might even argue that the decline of real research and the decline of the average attention span, could be partially attributed to the Internet itself, but that’s a subject for a future historian.)

Homosexual marriage is only the latest, not the worst, of the attacks on the institution of marriage in the current culture. In this I agree with Orson Scott Card, whose essay on the matter can be found here. I recommend the essay, even if you disagree with his conclusions.

I grew up in a somewhat less perverse mileu both for marriage and society, but the rapidity of change for the worse has been remarkable and deadly.

I would like to think that my increasingly dystopian views can be attributed merely to age and crotchetiness, but I fear that my perceptions are real. One can hope of course. No civilization likes to think of itself as in the process of decline. But the process, once begun, can play out pretty rapidly.

Excellent response, Jim

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Alexia

They want to be part of the Catholic Church so that they can destroy her from within.

Agreed. There are many such.

So what would that make them? I don’t think they would be Protestants, do you? Or Jews. Or Muslims. Or Buddhists. Wouldn’t they have to be the people who have no religious convictions at all, and would have no fear of the consequences of betraying a declaration of faith and obedience … in other words, atheists and agnostics?

 

[Alexia2000]

See, I’m not really sure. Maybe they grew up Catholic and believe the Catholic Church is one true church? So even though the church disagrees with one of their overarching life choices–assuming they are having sex–, they still feel drawn to what they consider Truth? But I have no idea. I’ve never actually met a gay Catholic. Maybe a gay priest or two, but not, you know, “practicing” gay. (“Practicing” is such an odd word to describe someone having sex.)

I agree with you

Mine was a rhetorical question simply to highlight the fact that even some of those, who know are committing a sin, return to the faith because they feel that it is the correct choice for them

Let us not berate them the moment they take that first step; infact, let us not berate them

PS. Don’t know how long one is required to ‘practice’ before one is considered a ‘professional’

 

[Alexia2000]

Alexia

They want to be part of the Catholic Church so that they can destroy her from within.

Agreed. There are many such.

So what would that make them? I don’t think they would be Protestants, do you? Or Jews. Or Muslims. Or Buddhists. Wouldn’t they have to be the people who have no religious convictions at all, and would have no fear of the consequences of betraying a declaration of faith and obedience … in other words, atheists and agnostics?

Not very nice people; and some of those might be homosexual and some might not be

But, I agree; anyone who does believe in good (and most, if not all religions preach that) will not consciously destroy another person’s ‘sanctuary’

 

[jmcrae]

I get that you’re not into gay marriage. I’m not here to argue that you should change your stance, because that’s a losing position on a board like this. If you think it’s a sin, well then, it’s a sin. But the idea that a society which accepts gay marriage “will soon fall” is just… weird. How do you see this going down? Seems like wishful thinking from an angry person. What happened to happy thoughts?

The Greek Empire fell when its leaders started accepting homosexuality. The Roman Empire fell when it started doing the same thing.

Other Empires such as the Mayan and Aztec Empires fell when they started making child sacrifices.

From this, we learn that abortion (which is a kind of child-killing) and homosexuality are at least indicators, if not root causes, of social decay. Will our own children, or our children’s children, flee from lawless cities to survive in the wilderness until a new civilization can rise up? Or how many generations will it take, before the damage is irreversible? We cannot assume that we alone are immune from the effects of these things, when stronger civilizations than ours were brought down by them.

 

[catharina]

The Greek Empire fell when its leaders started accepting homosexuality. The Roman Empire fell when it started doing the same thing.

Other Empires such as the Mayan and Aztec Empires fell when they started making child sacrifices.

From this, we learn that abortion (which is a kind of child-killing) and homosexuality are at least indicators, if not root causes, of social decay. Will our own children, or our children’s children, flee from lawless cities to survive in the wilderness until a new civilization can rise up? Or how many generations will it take, before the damage is irreversible? We cannot assume that we alone are immune from the effects of these things, when stronger civilizations than ours were brought down by them.

Yes.

 

[spn82756]

I think the gay marriage issue is a human rights issue and the majority of the children being born now will either be for gay marriage or labeled a bigot and a homophobe. I think the church will change their stance on it.

I can’t disagree with you more. The church is going to consider sin to be sin. Regardless of what society thinks. What you are saying in essence is that God will change his mind about what is right and wrong. He doesn’t do that.

Now…if stealing becomes the dominant practice among people…is it going to make it right for someone to steal your car? It doesn’t make sense.

 

[JimG]

Read the essay, Jim. I have to say I disagree with nearly all of it, but I’m glad I read it. It allows me to better understand the mindset of people opposing gay marriage. As an instructor, I would say the essay makes a lot of false connections to prove an untenable thesis. A massive portion of the essay is devoted to the breakdown of the family as seen through increased divorce rates. But the thesis is about how gay marriage is destroying families and therefore our society. Someone who already agrees with the author’s point will no doubt assume a clear connection between divorce rates and gay marriage, but those of us who aren’t yet on board are left baffled. The two appear entirely unrelated. In a better essay, the author would have addressed his naysayer in this moment and made clear the connection he was trying to draw between the two disparate subjects. Because the author made no such attempt, the essay is left with an air of preaching-to-the-choir. And what’s the point of that?

Edit: I think there’s a lot to say about the essay you provided, Jim. I don’t mean to be overly reductive by focusing my critique on only certain portions. I just didn’t feel it would be helpful or worth my time to offer point-by-point analyses of everything contained within it.

The Orson Scott Card essay was written for the popular media in response to the gay marriage decision in Massachusetts.

A more scholarly,comprehensive, and objective analysis of family structure and civilization can be found in Carle C. Zimmerman’s book, “Family and Civilization,” which is now available in paperback from ISI press. The current edition includes several additional critical essays relating to the subject, at the end of the book.

I’m still working my way through it, so can’t comment, except to say that historically, family structure and civilization are intimately connected, and western civilization seems to be, once again, approaching a crisis point. I’m tempted to jump ahead to the final chapter “The Future of Family and Civilization.” That wouldn’t be fair to the author, but it would satisfy my reduced attention span.

In any case, it’s not the old traditionalists like me who need to worry about such things. We can afford to be detached, since perhaps we can live out our years in relative peace. It’s the younger generations which might be faced with unanticipated crisis in their own world. It’s them that the elders should be worried about, especially if we have taught them all their lives that everything will be OK.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

jmcrea

*The Greek Empire fell when its leaders started accepting homosexuality. The Roman Empire fell when it started doing the same thing. *

The empires of both Greece and Rome fell when they became overly militaristic and prosperous. Militarism breeds a certain arrogance and disregard for human decencies. That can be seen in ancient Greece and Rome and Nazi Germany. The prosperity that comes from enslaving other cultures weakens and saps the natural vitality of the predator. The masculine virtues of the father in battle morph into the feminine virtues of the son left at home with his mother. Rampant homosexuality is about the last clear symptom of a civilization entering its period of decline. That was noticed at the end of the Victorian era in England, and today is in full bloom both in England, the United States and elswhere after two World Wars and millions of bodies of dead fathers rotting on thousands of battlefields.

Rebellion against traditions and especially against moral discipline becomes all the rage when a civilization is in free-fall. God is questioned as to His existence, and finally He is mocked with hateful impunity. Not satisfied with killing God, killing children in the womb becomes the next most popular homicide. Without the aid of religion, social cohesion is lost and a nation is torn asunder with conflicting egos and interests. Reason fails; even common sense fails as the rebels manufactures their own creeds based on their own desires, rather than on the truth and the natural order of things.

At last, too many interests clashing, civil war or revolution will be in the making, and all bets are off.