Do you truly agree with Proverbs 25:21?

[Robert_Sock]

Proverbs 25:21
“If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat; if he is thirsty, give him water to drink.”

 

[10gr8kids]

Proverbs 25:21
“If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat; if he is thirsty, give him water to drink.”

Yes, I would give my enemy food and water if they needed it. I believe even in war, our military gives food and water to prisoners and medical attention when needed. In fact, that reminds me of the story “The Angel of Marye’s Heights”.

 

[meltzerboy]

Proverbs 25:21
“If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat; if he is thirsty, give him water to drink.”

Also from Proverbs 24:17, “Rejoice not when thy enemy falleth…”

The essential biological necessities of life should be maintained, no matter what, and gloating over a fallen enemy is forbidden. Do I agree? I don’t see why not. Now, what Jesus stated, that is, to love our enemy by, for example, praying for him, is upping the ante. Judaism does not exactly agree with this since it places too much of a burden on oneself to do so. However, not to treat our enemy unkindly, by means of physical (or psychological) torture or denying him food and water, is doable and should be done out of human decency.

 

[adamhovey1988]

yeah actually I do I agree with it so much that I’ve had to forgive people who culture tells me are Unforgivable

 

[FollowChrist34]

I think people can reasonably get themselves to 'forgive him/her/them for they know not what they do" which leads to the capacity for charity.

 

[meltzerboy]

I think people can reasonably get themselves to 'forgive him/her/them for they know not what they do" which leads to the capacity for charity.

If the verses in Proverb are taken in their larger context of forgiveness, then certainly Judaism agrees with this view. However, even here, forgiveness is confined, according to Jewish law, to what one can legitimately forgive. For example, the living cannot forgive injury done to another party if the other party does not or cannot forgive. Such is the case in forgiving the Nazis’ murder of human beings. In other words, it is not our right to forgive in place of those who have died and thus cannot forgive.

 

[FollowChrist34]

If the verses in Proverb are taken in their larger context of forgiveness, then certainly Judaism agrees with this view. However, even here, forgiveness is confined, according to Jewish law, to what one can legitimately forgive. For example, the living cannot forgive injury done to another party if the other party does not or cannot forgive. Such is the case in forgiving the Nazis’ murder of human beings. In other words, it is not our right to forgive in place of those who have died and thus cannot forgive.

Right, I totally agree. And I am not sure the Proverbs verse is getting at forgiveness so much as being charitable, at least as I read it. I mean if Charles Manson were hanging by one hand off a cliff and I was the only person there who could pull him up to safety…would I do it? Would probably depend on how isolated the place was.

 

[Robert_Sock]

If the verses in Proverb are taken in their larger context of forgiveness, then certainly Judaism agrees with this view. However, even here, forgiveness is confined, according to Jewish law, to what one can legitimately forgive. For example, the living cannot forgive injury done to another party if the other party does not or cannot forgive. Such is the case in forgiving the Nazis’ murder of human beings. In other words, it is not our right to forgive in place of those who have died and thus cannot forgive.

Doesn’t Judaism believe that every soul will eventually be saved through Purgatory? If so, this means that eventually even Hitler will be forgiven.

 

[adamhovey1988]

Doesn’t Judaism believe that every soul will eventually be saved through Purgatory? If so, this means that eventually even Hitler will be forgiven.

I know Judaism has a tradition of praying for the dead but I don’t think they quite understand that as purgatory. I think it is important to remember that Judaism is a very old religion with very many variations in different parts of the world I mean even during the time of Jesus not all Jews believed in the same thing. I have to ask how you know Hitler is not in heaven were you there when he died? I wouldn’t be putting money on him being there but at the same time you don’t know whether or not he repented

 

[meltzerboy]

Doesn’t Judaism believe that every soul will eventually be saved through Purgatory? If so, this means that eventually even Hitler will be forgiven.

Judaism does believe in purgatory but it does not believe that every soul enters purgatory. Those who are truly evil may not be able to be cleansed by means of purgatory and therefore are NOT saved.

Judaism is different from Christianity with regard to being saved in that the former does not believe that committing a mortal sin at the very end of one’s life without repentance or a desire for repentance automatically condemns one to hell. It is thought that G-d judges us on the basis of the totality of our lives. The reverse is a bit trickier, however. Hitler may have sincerely repented of his atrocities at the very end of his life; but whether or not G-d would accept this as sufficient for him to be cleansed in purgatory is unknown to us.

 

[BornInMarch]

In all honesty, no I do not.

The world is full of too many monstrous and evil people, very few of them receive justice on earth, and even fewer of them ever feel remorse for their actions.

I prefer Psalm 58, because it reminds me that monsters don’t really get away with their actions in the end.

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+58
Psalm 58:10-11:

The righteous will rejoice when he sees the vengeance;
he will bathe his feet in the blood of the wicked.
Mankind will say, “Surely there is a reward for the righteous;
surely there is a God who judges on earth.”

 

[HelenRose]

Proverbs 25:21
“If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat; if he is thirsty, give him water to drink.”

Yes.

 

[BornInMarch]

If the verses in Proverb are taken in their larger context of forgiveness, then certainly Judaism agrees with this view. However, even here, forgiveness is confined, according to Jewish law, to what one can legitimately forgive. For example, the living cannot forgive injury done to another party if the other party does not or cannot forgive. Such is the case in forgiving the Nazis’ murder of human beings. In other words, it is not our right to forgive in place of those who have died and thus cannot forgive.

I can absolutely understand this.

It always feels wrong when I try (usually unsuccessfully) to forgive someone whose actions were against a loved one instead of against me directly, as though doing so is a betrayal against the loved one.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Judaism does believe in purgatory but it does not believe that every soul enters purgatory. Those who are truly evil may not be able to be cleansed by means of purgatory and therefore are NOT saved.

Judaism is different from Christianity with regard to being saved in that the former does not believe that committing a mortal sin at the very end of one’s life without repentance or a desire for repentance automatically condemns one to hell. It is thought that G-d judges us on the basis of the totality of our lives. The reverse is a bit trickier, however. Hitler may have sincerely repented of his atrocities at the very end of his life; but whether or not G-d would accept this as sufficient for him to be cleansed in purgatory is unknown to us.

Chabad is very explicit that all souls will eventually be saved, but I’m not sure if their claim is specific to just all Jews.

For a G‑dly soul spawns far more good in its lifetime than evil. The core of the soul is unadulterated goodness; the good we accomplish is infinite, the evil but shallow and superficial. So even the most wicked of souls, say our sages, experiences at most twelve months of Gehinnom, followed by an eternity of heaven. Furthermore, a soul’s experience of Gehinnom can be mitigated by the action of his or her children and loved ones, here on earth. Reciting kaddish and engaging in other good deeds “in merit of” and “for the elevation of” the departed soul means that the soul, in effect, is continuing to act positively upon the physical world, thereby adding to the goodness of its physical lifetime. chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/282508/jewish/What-Happens-After-We-Die.htm

 

[FollowChrist34]

We need to remember that forgiving someone who has wronged us is not the same thing as justifying or excusing the wrongdoing, including the memory of the pain that the wrongdoing caused. it is acceptable, even encouraged to comes to terms with this harm in our life - the impact it had. The forgiveness is just recognizing that the transgressor was human, in sin, a victim. Oftentimes those who commit evil are victims of evil themselves. Nor are we required to like or continue to interact with the person as I understand it. Just don’t hold onto the grievance, harbor feelings of resentment about it.

And, no, I don’t forgive Hitler. I’ll leave that to God, assuming he’s up for it. Back to the part about giving your enemy food and water - yes I would probably do that if he/she were starving, at death’s doorstep. Slightly different scenario.

 

[Robert_Sock]

We need to remember that forgiving someone who has wronged us is not the same thing as justifying or excusing the wrongdoing, including the memory of the pain that the wrongdoing caused. it is acceptable, even encouraged to comes to terms with this harm in our life - the impact it had. The forgiveness is just recognizing that the transgressor was human, in sin, a victim. Oftentimes those who commit evil are victims of evil themselves. Nor are we required to like or continue to interact with the person as I understand it. Just don’t hold onto the grievance, harbor feelings of resentment about it.

And, no, I don’t forgive Hitler. I’ll leave that to God, assuming he’s up for it. Back to the part about giving your enemy food and water - yes I would probably do that if he/she were starving, at death’s doorstep. Slightly different scenario.

I believe that this passage from Proverbs goes far beyond its face value. I believe it gives rise to Christ’s command to actually love our enemies.

 

[meltzerboy]

Chabad is very explicit that all souls will eventually be saved, but I’m not sure if their claim is specific to just all Jews.

This does not apply only to Jews. Wicked is wicked regardless of whether one is Jewish or not. You are right that 12-month purgatory, according to Chabad and Orthodox Judaism in general, is reserved for the most evil. That is why prayers for a family member (a parent, especially) are limited to 11 months rather than a full year.

However, Orthodox Judaism is not the only form of Judaism or the only interpretation of what may happen to the most evil people. There is a belief among others that some people may be too evil to be purified and perhaps their souls go to hell or are destroyed altogether. Just how Jews define hell is yet another matter of contention: whether it is a place, a state of mind, or separation from G-d. Anyhow, Jews do not focus on hell; that is for sure. They do not even focus much on heaven, but instead pay more attention to the here and now and leading a meaningful, good life of obeying G-d’s commandments, which really amounts to caring for others, here on earth.

 

[Bridgit_Andrews]

I believe that this passage from Proverbs goes far beyond its face value. I believe it gives rise to Christ’s command to actually love our enemies.

How does one do this? I’ve never had an actual enemy before last year. I’ve always looked for the good in everyone and was blindsided by the evil. I don’t know if I can or how to love this person. So now this person wins again because I don’t have it in me to follow Christ’s command to love my enemy. Peachy!

Peace,
B

 

[Robert_Sock]

How does one do this? I’ve never had an actual enemy before last year. I’ve always looked for the good in everyone and was blindsided by the evil. I don’t know if I can or how to love this person. So now this person wins again because I don’t have it in me to follow Christ’s command to love my enemy. Peachy!

Peace,
B

For many, forgiveness is a difficult virtue to master. When we learn the power and wisdom of forgiveness, we are bound to have reached an advanced level of spiritual maturity. Regardless the nature of any possible abuse that we may have endured, nor the severity of that abuse, full recovery from abuse cannot be achieved until we truly forgive our abuser(s). Any anger or resentment we hold within us, live and thrive within us, and become a part of our very self. We will never rid ourselves of this anger and resentment until we experience true forgiveness towards all. Seeing our tormentors suffer a thousand times over will only add to our own misery.

On the other hand, to endure unnecessary torment and misery is never righteous, but a perversion. Also, the righteousness of forgiveness should never involve our condoning abuse or any other forms of evil.

True forgiveness requires our valuing peace and love above all else. Experiencing forgiveness towards those who have wronged us resembles perfect love more so than perhaps any other human experience. Forgiveness involves recognizing and valuing the potential for love that exists within every human soul, including our own soul. Sins cannot be completely forgiven until we forgive, and find an inner peace with, everyone who has ever wronged us; for every ounce of anger and resentment that we hold against any other(s), there will surely exist an ounce of sin held against us – for harboring anger and resentment within our self is sin.

The Golden Rule states: “do unto others as you would have them do unto you!” Our forgiving everyone, especially those we consider our enemies or adversaries, is to demonstrate to God that we are worthy of His forgiveness. Likewise, to find love for all our enemies and adversaries is to demonstrate to God that we have suffered long enough with our anger and resentment, and we are ready to receive His love.

Again, to experience the true power and wisdom contained within the virtue of forgiveness is to develop great spiritual growth!

 

[Robert_Sock]

This does not apply only to Jews. Wicked is wicked regardless of whether one is Jewish or not. You are right that 12-month purgatory, according to Chabad and Orthodox Judaism in general, is reserved for the most evil. That is why prayers for a family member (a parent, especially) are limited to 11 months rather than a full year.

However, Orthodox Judaism is not the only form of Judaism or the only interpretation of what may happen to the most evil people. There is a belief among others that some people may be too evil to be purified and perhaps their souls go to hell or are destroyed altogether. Just how Jews define hell is yet another matter of contention: whether it is a place, a state of mind, or separation from G-d. Anyhow, Jews do not focus on hell; that is for sure. They do not even focus much on heaven, but instead pay more attention to the here and now and leading a meaningful, good life of obeying G-d’s commandments, which really amounts to caring for others, here on earth.

Yes. I’m aware that there is much variation in beliefs amongst different forms of Judaism and I was only focusing on Chabad who I have delved into similar to the way you seem to have delved into Catholicism.

I like studying the Tanya and I think it does a nice job integrating religion and psychology. I’ve interacted with several of the Chabad Rabbis and they have been very encouraging.

I’m impressed with Judaism in general in that most do not seem to condemn Catholicism… Chabad is clear in their beliefs that righteous Christians will have a part of the World to Come.

When I was at my old church, we were invited by the Reform Synagogue across the street to participate in their service and even the priests from my church took an active role. Afterward, they were invited to take part in a Mass at our church. There was a great encouragement for both parties to learn more about each other’s religion. However, I was drawn to Chabad.