Doctrine on transgender

[Cherry5]

Yes, I believe it to be similar and I believe it to be very common.

Most trans people first experience dysphoria at about four years old, do you really think they have read about it and then reacted to what they read? In most cases the internet was not even around or developed enough to read about it anyway.

 

[Cherry5]

Regarding your comment about men not wearing womens clothes common sense should dictate that since the CC does not hold to this practice in whole that I am not proposing it either.

So you are comfortable with applying this when it suits your position?

From a Biblical point of view, God forbade women from wearing mens’s clothes and vice versa so we Catholics should do our best to help these people understand that they don’t have to accept this unnatural condition and that God will help them. Paz.

From the above you deduced the following without any prejudice?

This law’s origin was clearly directed to individuals that would dress a certain way as to deceive others for sexual reasons and as such is still valid. God did not make us to pretend that we are the opposite sex of that which He ordained in us.

Your claim that Transgender people do it to deceive others is completely unfounded. There may a few that may do it but not the vast majority. The risk is too high, besides the objective is making an effort to be the gender they innately are convinced they should be.

 

[pnewton]

Most trans people first experience dysphoria at about four years old, do you really think they have read about it and then reacted to what they read.

Children can also be taught by their parents. But no, I do not believe your statement.

Dysphoria? All children experience some dysphoria at around four. Could some feel like a girl? Sure. I had a son that thought he was a cat for a while. If that would have been a possibility and if I had supported those childish feelings, he would be transfeline today.

 

[Catolico65]

Okay, and your reason for it being impossible to be a biological condition affecting the mind is?

The brain and the rest of the body are sexually differentiated at different times in fetal development, as such it is quite possible for the body to be sufficiently masculinize while the brain is insufficiently (in the case of transwomen) or excessively (in the case of transmen) masculinized leading to gender confusion or in more severe cases the person being rather convinced of being the opposite gender.

This is non scientific opinion.

Also, what is your opinion regarding the CC’s acceptance of homosexuality as normal?

 

[Catolico65]

So you are comfortable with applying this when it suits your position?

From the above you deduced the following without any prejudice?

Your claim that Transgender people do it to deceive others is completely unfounded. There may a few that may do it but not the vast majority. The risk is too high, besides the objective is making an effort to be the gender they innately are convinced they should be.

These opinions are not scientific. I have to ask, do you believe in the Bible and do you believe it when it says homosexuality is unnatural and degrading?

What is your opinion regarding the CC acceptance of homosexuality as normal?

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

You guys have no evidence, only non scientific non scholarly conjecture and a couple suggestive studies.

Regarding your comment about men not wearing womens clothes common sense should dictate that since the CC does not hold to this practice in whole that I am not proposing it either. This law’s origin was clearly directed to individuals that would dress a certain way as to deceive others for sexual reasons and as such is still valid. God did not make us to pretend that we are the opposite sex of that which He ordained in us.

Actually there are a number of scientific studies very strongly suggesting that hormonal exposure in the womb affects gender expression.

When is wearing clothes of the opposite sex okay, and when is it not?

This is non scientific opinion.

Also, what is your opinion regarding the CC’s acceptance of homosexuality as normal?

Actually a number of studies over the last thirty years have documented that brain and body sex are differentiated at different times, and that hormonal exposure affects behavior after birth.

“Normality” is basically irrelevant for determining whether something is moral or not, for example adultery is rampant and is not and will never be moral, likewise for fornication.

 

[Rin]

This is non scientific opinion.

This is getting tiresome. The science which indicates a neurobiological origin of transgenderism is solid, which has been pointed out to you repeatedly, but yet, you think your engineering credentials qualify you to reject the current consensus.

In addition, you keep misreading statistics regarding “ex-homosexuals”, which has been pointed out to you repeatedly. Since you claim to have taken courses in statistics, I’m wondering if you do this on purpose?

Despite claiming to have a background in science, you keep citing a highly original, non-peer-reviewed book to prove your points.

You also keep making claims about Catholic teaching, despite people repeatedly having pointed out that your views indeed are not Catholic teaching.

Lastly, here are a few of the studies that point toward the brain-sex hypothesis:

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“There is also evidence, albeit clinical, for a role of testosterone in the sexual differentiation of the human brain, in particular in inducing male gender role behavior and heterosexual orientation.” - link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4614-7441-8_1

“…We conclude that there is sufficient evidence that EDCs modify behavioral sexual dimorphism in children, presumably by interacting with the hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal (HPG) axis.” - ehp.niehs.nih.gov/wp-content/uploads/121/11/ehp.1306533.pdf

“Gender-dependent differentiation of the brain has been detected at every level of organization–morphological, neurochemical, and functional–and has been shown to be primarily controlled by sex differences in gonadal steroid hormone levels during perinatal development.” - link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00424-013-1258-4

“Gender identity (the conviction of belonging to the male or female gender), sexual orientation (hetero-, homo-, or bisexuality), pedophilia, and the risks for neuropsychiatric disorders are programmed into our brain during early development. There is no proof that postnatal social environment has any crucial effect on gender identity or sexual orientation.” - link.springer.com/referenceworkentry/10.1007/978-1-4614-1997-6_115

“Testosterone, estrogen and dihydrotestosterone are the main steroid hormones responsible for the organization and sexual differentiation of brain structures during early development.” journalagent.com/z4/download_fulltext.asp?pdir=jtgga&plng=tur&un=JTGGA-86836

“In human males, we show that variation in fetal testosterone (FT) predicts later local gray matter volume of specific brain regions in a direction that is congruent with sexual dimorphism observed in a large independent sample of age-matched males and females from the NIH Pediatric MRI Data Repository.” - jneurosci.org/content/32/2/674.abstract

“Testosterone measured in infancy predicts subsequent sex-typed behavior in boys and in girls.” - sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0018506X1200044X

“The finger length ratio between the second and fourth digits in transgender men was significantly lower than in female controls in the right hand in this study. 2D : 4D showed a positive correlation with GIS score. Because 2D : 4D influences are assumed to be established in early life and to reflect testosterone exposure, our results suggest a relationship between GID-FtM and perinatal testosterone.” - ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22738413

“…growing evidence shows that testosterone exposure contributes similarly to the development of other human behaviors that show sex differences, including sexual orientation, core gender identity, and some, though not all, sex-related cognitive and personality characteristics.” - ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21438685

"There is strong evidence that high concentrations of androgens lead to more male-typical behavior and that this also influences gender identity. " - degruyter.com/view/j/jpem.2010.23.issue-6/jpem.2010.095/jpem.2010.095.xml

“However, when the process of genital development and of brain sexual development does not match the same sex, females with a male brain and vice versa can arise. These transsexual people have problems with their gender identity and have the conviction of being born in the wrong body.” - dspace.library.uu.nl/handle/1874/182733

“In this study, more than 150 individuals with confirmed or suspected prenatal diethylstilbestrol (DES) exposure reported moderate to severe feelings of gender dysphoria across the lifespan.” - shb-info.org/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/desexposedhbs.pdf

“Secondly, as predicted twin girls where one displayed gender dysphoria had a more masculine pattern of cerebral lateralization, than non-transgender girls. These findings support the notion of an influence of prenatal T on early brain organization in girls.” - ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15177706

“It thus appears conceivable that due to local hormone dependent changes during development at least some areas of the brain may follow a different course than the genitals during the process of sexual differentiation. A partial or even complete brain-body sex reversal may eventually be the result.” - dare.uva.nl/document/75961

“Results support the notion that the gender identity is related to the sex steroid-driven sexual differentiation of the brain, and that certain genetic variants of three of the genes critically involved in this process, may enhance the susceptibility for transsexualism.” - gupea.ub.gu.se/handle/2077/12418

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I am not the one pointing to pseudo-science here. As good as every single study so far indicates that transgenderism is neurobiological in nature and caused by events during pregnancy.

 

[Rau]

As good as every single study so far indicates that transgenderism is neurobiological in nature and caused by events during pregnancy.

There are so many human conditions determined prior to birth, some favourable, and so many not. I marvel that some people “need” to reject the idea that something like transgenderism could possibly arise in the way you describe. Certainly there is no compulsion to accept it - but on what basis is it rejected out of hand? What principle would such an outcome breach? What is the more persuasive but contrary scientific evidence on the table?

 

[Catolico65]

I am not the one pointing to pseudo-science here. As good as every single study so far indicates that transgenderism is neurobiological in nature and caused by events during pregnancy.

Not all of the links are regarding transexualism. As far as consensus, there is that there could be links, but nothing is definitive.

The problem is that when a lay person reads a study they have no way of discerning between a “suggested” or “possible” link and an isolated agent. The are light years away from eachother. I lament that pseudo science is passed off on science by laypersons that end up justifying all types of damage to our youths.

 

[SMGS127]

Not all of the links are regarding transexualism. As far as consensus, there is that there could be links, but nothing is definitive.

The problem is that when a lay person reads a study they have no way of discerning between a “suggested” or “possible” link and an isolated agent. The are light years away from eachother. I lament that pseudo science is passed off on science by laypersons that end up justifying all types of damage to our youths.

Excuse me, but how is partaking in a theological debate on a Catholic forum devoted to Moral Theological debates discussing the theological possibilities for a potential legitimacy for the transgender condition in the Catholic faith "justifying all types of damage to our youths?

 

[Rin]

Not all of the links are regarding transexualism.

They’re all related to gender identity, which is relevant to the debate, since some individuals here refuse to accept that the brain is gendered and that this process happens independently of the development of the genitals.

As far as consensus, there is that there could be links, but nothing is definitive.

Finally, some progress.

But with your claimed background in science, I’m sure you’re aware that science is never completely definitive, it can only determine probability. When after decades of focused research there are numerous studies that seem to confirm this model of gender identity, and close to none (if any) that contradict it, wouldn’t you agree the probability is rather high? And that rejecting this evidence because you don’t like it (there isn’t really another good reason to) isn’t very… Scientific?

The problem is that when a lay person reads a study they have no way of discerning between a “suggested” or “possible” link and an isolated agent. The are light years away from eachother.

Indeed.

I lament that pseudo science is passed off on science by laypersons that end up justifying all types of damage to our youths.

I absolutely agree.

(See what I did there?)

 

[Catolico65]

Excuse me, but how is partaking in a theological debate on a Catholic forum devoted to Moral Theological debates discussing the theological possibilities for a potential legitimacy for the transgender condition in the Catholic faith "justifying all types of damage to our youths?

Because it justifies public policies like homosexual indoctrination of our children and reparative therapy where only the Bible is used, thus causing millions of our children to suffer and have suicidal thoughts because they believe their condition is permanent.
*
“Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea."*

 

[Catolico65]

They’re all related to gender identity, which is relevant to the debate, since some individuals here refuse to accept that the brain is gendered and that this process happens independently of the development of the genitals.

Finally, some progress.

But with your claimed background in science, I’m sure you’re aware that science is never completely definitive, it can only determine probability. When after decades of focused research there are numerous studies that seem to confirm this model of gender identity, and close to none (if any) that contradict it, wouldn’t you agree the probability is rather high? And that rejecting this evidence because you don’t like it (there isn’t really another good reason to) isn’t very… Scientific?

Indeed.

I absolutely agree.

(See what I did there?)

You are right about probability being a determining factor. Thus based on the suggestive reports, the probability that the brain’s sexuality can be different from the body is practically nil. Thanks.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Because it justifies public policies like homosexual indoctrination of our children and reparative therapy where only the Bible is used, thus causing millions of our children to suffer and have suicidal thoughts because they believe their condition is permanent.
*
“Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea."*

1. How?
2. Define “homosexual indoctrination”
3. the term “reparative therapy” is extremely strongly associate with Nicolosi & Co. who most definitely don’t just use the Bible.

You are right about probability being a determining factor. Thus based on the suggestive reports, the probability that the brain’s sexuality can be different from the body is practically nil. Thanks.

The brain and the body are sexually differentiated at different times, it is entirely possible for one to be properly differentiated and the other to fail to differentiate correctly and given the percent of transsexuals at less than 1% it doesn’t need to be common for it to be the cause.

 

[pnewton]

Excuse me, but how is partaking in a theological debate on a Catholic forum devoted to Moral Theological debates discussing the theological possibilities for a potential legitimacy for the transgender condition in the Catholic faith "justifying all types of damage to our youths?

Is this allowable? Aren’t we supposed to stay off topic?

As has already been said, there is no doctrine, so I guess exchanging opinions in the dark is okay. Well, there is the doctrine of man’s dignity and treating every person with dignity, even the transgender (or mistaken/deluded person who thinks they are transgender), which ever the case may be. The science is something we are free to have differing opinions on. The politics are something we can differ on. But in the end, we still have to reach people where they are.

 

[SMGS127]

Is this allowable? Aren’t we supposed to stay off topic?

As has already been said, there is no doctrine, so I guess exchanging opinions in the dark is okay. Well, there is the doctrine of man’s dignity and treating every person with dignity, even the transgender (or mistaken/deluded person who thinks they are transgender), which ever the case may be. The science is something we are free to have differing opinions on. The politics are something we can differ on. But in the end, we still have to reach people where they are.

I agree with this. People are free to differ on this issue, at least for now. I just have theologian blood in me; it bugs me when there’s an unsolved issue, and I love hashing them out with others. It only really bothers me when people come in and try to shut down a legitimate debate by going “hey I’m right, everyone else is wrong, you guys aren’t being Catholic.” This is not the only thread it’s happened to, but I do get annoyed every time it happens.