Does all goodness coming from God mean that we are predestined?

  • Thread starter Thread starter laircy
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
L

laircy

Guest
All goodness comes from God.

It seems that would include the good of conversion or repentance. But does that mean God chooses who will convert and who will not?

Or, is each conversion caused by God insofar that God gave us free will?
 
Everything you have in life is given and planned for by God from the beginning. “From the womb before the daystar I begot you” psalm 110:3. Just because we can’t see how His plan is at work in another person’s life doesn’t mean He didn’t plan it. His word will judge us on the last day (love) so how we loved and were loved will all be shown.
 
All goodness comes from God.

It seems that would include the good of conversion or repentance. But does that mean God chooses who will convert and who will not?

Or, is each conversion caused by God insofar that God gave us free will?
You have just stumbled on the great and confusing mysteries of grace, predestination, reprobation, the universal divine desire of salvation, man’s free will and God’s sovereignty.

Basically, the non-negotiables can be boiled down to these (i.e. these are Catholic teachings de fide, and must be accepted):
  1. God desires the salvation of all, and desires no one to perish.
  2. God gives sufficient grace for all to be saved.
  3. God gave man free will to accept or reject that grace.
  4. God has ordained, out of nothing but the divine will, to predestine certain people to salvation (predestination), and will ensure that they use their free will to attain that salvation. Whether or not this is in light of foreseen merits or before that, the Church has not defined.
  5. God has also resolved, in light of foreseen demerits, to predestine certain people to hell (reprobation, post et propter praevisa demerita). This is what usually shocks Catholics who will usually quickly quote CCC 1037 to “refute” this. But no, this is Catholic, not Calvinistic belief and must be held.
With these in place, theologians through the ages have tried to come up with schools of thought to reconcile all of these truths. I myself lean towards to Molinist line of thinking, but the Church has permitted multiple theories to be held (the Thomist and Molinist being the two most commonly known).

I warn you (and you can review previous threads): this is one of the most difficult pieces of theology you will probably encounter.
 
Peace and All Good!!
All goodness comes from God.

It seems that would include the good of conversion or repentance. But does that mean God chooses who will convert and who will not?

Or, is each conversion caused by God insofar that God gave us free will?
An excellent and very important question! Thanks for the post 👍

James 1:16-18 states: [16] Do not err, therefore, my dearest brethren. [17] Every best gift, and every perfect gift, is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no change, nor shadow of alteration. [18] For of his own will hath he begotten us by the word of truth, that we might be some beginning of his creatures.

Psalm 138:1-16 also says:[1] Lord, thou hast proved me, and known me: [2] Thou hast know my sitting down, and my rising up. [3] Thou hast understood my thoughts afar off: my path and my line thou hast searched out. [4] And thou hast foreseen all my ways: for there is no speech in my tongue. [5] Behold, O Lord, thou hast known all things, the last and those of old: thou hast formed me, and hast laid thy hand upon me.

and my most secret thoughts are known to thee.

[6] Thy knowledge is become wonderful to me: it is high, and I cannot reach to it. [7] Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy face? [8] If I ascend into heaven, thou art there: if I descend into hell, thou art present. [9] If I take my wings early in the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea: [10] Even there also shall thy hand lead me: and thy right hand shall hold me.

[11] And I said: Perhaps darkness shall cover me: and night shall be my light in my pleasures. [12] But darkness shall not be dark to thee, and night shall be light as day: the darkness thereof, and the light thereof are alike to thee. [13] For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast protected me from my mother’ s womb. [14] I will praise thee, for thou art fearfully magnified: wonderful are thy works, and my soul knoweth right well. [15] My bone is not hidden from thee, which thou hast made in secret: and my substance in the lower parts of the earth.

[16] Thy eyes did see my imperfect being, and in thy book all shall be written: days shall be formed, and no one in them.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church, para 600 states: “To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: “In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.” For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness”

From my reading of Scripture, the Catechism and the saints (I’m no expert & am happy to be corrected if I’m mistaken), I understand that the Grace and the tools necessary for repentance and conversion are given to us as a free Gift from Our Divine Lord, and he knows what our response will be and if we will accept them & repent.

As such, Our Divine Lord is the author of conversion and repentance but at the same time He does not infringe our free will and we still choose whether to make use of the gifts & inspirations He sends us. His omniscience allows him to know us perfectly & know what we will choose but this doesn’t take away our freedom.

:blessyou:
 
Everything you have in life is given and planned for by God from the beginning. “From the womb before the daystar I begot you” psalm 110:3. Just because we can’t see how His plan is at work in another person’s life doesn’t mean He didn’t plan it. His word will judge us on the last day (love) so how we loved and were loved will all be shown.
The what right does he have to judge in the end if it was his plan?
 
Oldcelt

What right does he have to judge us? Note that His word will judge us. His word is Love, being the spirit of justice and the entire reason we are here. God, who is Love, is going to judge us, And he is the only One who sees all and knows all. I’m of the belief that all men are saved. Universal salvation. God put every moment in play from the beginning and being all knowing planned for every choice and every situation. At the end all will see the glorious plan of God manifested and how every creature played a part in bringing it about. Why you are placed where you are you have to ask God to enlighten you.
 
Peace and all Good!
You have just stumbled on the great and confusing mysteries of grace, predestination, reprobation, the universal divine desire of salvation, man’s free will and God’s sovereignty.

Basically, the non-negotiables can be boiled down to these (i.e. these are Catholic teachings de fide, and must be accepted):
  1. God desires the salvation of all, and desires no one to perish.
  2. God gives sufficient grace for all to be saved.
  3. God gave man free will to accept or reject that grace.
  4. God has ordained, out of nothing but the divine will, to predestine certain people to salvation (predestination), and will ensure that they use their free will to attain that salvation. Whether or not this is in light of foreseen merits or before that, the Church has not defined.
  5. God has also resolved, in light of foreseen demerits, to predestine certain people to hell (reprobation, post et propter praevisa demerita). This is what usually shocks Catholics who will usually quickly quote CCC 1037 to “refute” this. But no, this is Catholic, not Calvinistic belief and must be held.
With these in place, theologians through the ages have tried to come up with schools of thought to reconcile all of these truths. I myself lean towards to Molinist line of thinking, but the Church has permitted multiple theories to be held (the Thomist and Molinist being the two most commonly known).

I warn you (and you can review previous threads): this is one of the most difficult pieces of theology you will probably encounter.
Thank you Porthos11 for this excellent summary of the Catholic teaching in this area, it certainly is one of the toughest bits of theology out there!!

:blessyou:
 
Everything you have in life is given and planned for by God from the beginning. “From the womb before the daystar I begot you” psalm 110:3. Just because we can’t see how His plan is at work in another person’s life doesn’t mean He didn’t plan it. His word will judge us on the last day (love) so how we loved and were loved will all be shown.
He allows us the freedom to reject goodness.
 
The what right does he have to judge in the end if it was his plan?
God’s plan is one thing, but what anyone does with his plan maybe something else.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top