Does an Israelite need Roman Catholicism in order to become saved?

[Randy_Carson]

We all know where Christianity comes from, but it was first taught by the apostles, to the gentiles (per the scripture). It is also written, that the jews will also be taught, later (ie. they will not be forgotten). My original question still remains.

The Bible clearly teaches that Christianity was spread initially among the Jews and only later to the Gentiles.

You can read about Peter’s visit to Cornelius in Acts 10 & 11.

There was a huge controversy regarding Peter and the Gentiles culminating in the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15.

You might want to refresh your memory on this.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I forgot to respond to the rest of your posting. **YOU **believe that the ‘whole spectrum’ of the Catholic faith, is the full [proper] form. I don’t. I believe it contains many ‘add-ons’ (beads, etc.) that are not mentioned anywhere in the scriptures.

We often forget the story of the death of Aaron’s two sons, because they also ‘added’ incense to an offering. The reason for this, was because God had not commanded them to do this. I see no difference to their ‘add-ons’ and yours.

The Use of Incense Proved from Scripture

**Genesis 8:20-21 **
Then Noah built an altar to the LORD, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. And when the LORD smelled the pleasing odor, the LORD said in his heart, "I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; neither will I ever again destroy every living creature as I have done.

Leviticus 2:9
And the priest shall take from the cereal offering its memorial portion and burn this on the altar, an offering by fire, a pleasingodor to the LORD.

Leviticus 6:15,21
And one shall take from it a handful of the fine flour of the cereal offering with its oil and all the frankincense which is on the cereal offering, and burn this as its memorial portion on the altar, a pleasingodor to the LORD. . . . It shall be made with oil on a griddle; you shall bring it well mixed, in baked pieces like a cereal offering, and offer it for a pleasingodor to the LORD.
**
Psalm 141:2 **
Let my prayer be counted asincense before thee, and the lifting up of my hands as an evening sacrifice!
**
Luke 1:9-10 **
according to the custom of the priesthood, it fell to him by lot to enter the temple of the Lord and burnincense. And the whole multitude of the people were praying outside at the hour of incense.

Revelation 5:8
And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full ofincense, which are the prayers of the saints;

Revelation 8:3-4
And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given muchincense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and thesmoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I think I understand what you are trying to say. My question still remains. Has God anointed the R.C. Church above His anointed children?

Yes. The Catholic Church is the fulfillment of what God began with the people of Israel.

We must be on our guard against triumphalism, however, mindful of Paul’s warning in Romans 11:

11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!

13I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

**All Israel Will Be Saved **

25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this isf] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."g]
28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may nowh] receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 

[sambos671]

Jesus had quoted the shemma from Deuteronomy 6. That has always been the centerpiece of the law of Moses. The shemma is not new law. And, the other commandment he took from Leviticus 19:18. From the time of Jesus to this very day Rabbis have commented on the love of neighbor, that commandment does not abolish the law.

You have used the word fulfill as to mean abolish. That greek word actually means perform in the context of Jesus words, that the Torah is to be strictly observed.

I don’t follow your point about Jesus on the throne of David. Jesus was never annointed King of Israel. Annointing is an actual part of the cerimonial initiation of Israeli kings. After being annointed all kings of Israel recieved the title messiah. To say that someone is messiah who has not been annointed is a euphemism. It may be a great compliment but it does not mean that the person actually is king.

The law is not abolished it is accomplished. So that obedience to it to the extent it requieres (completely with out variance) is not a basis of salvation. Salvation comes so that now we can fulfill the the law in our own lives and the Shemma (hear) or hear oh Israel is a center piece but there was an attempt to create a “hedge” of protection around the law by creating idiosycranc laws that people used like our laywers today use the law finding out means by which to obtain what they can and say they still follow the law.

As far as Davidic lineage I know about the anointing to establish kings. God told David that he would always have a king on his throne. Messiah (the annoited one) is fulfillment of this promise. He’s annointed not by oil but by the Holy Spirit. And since the Davidic line of Kings ended and even in Jesus day there was no decendent of David on the throne God (just for you G-d) must have lied. Or there is a misunderstanding of what he meant. Christianity believes that God Fulfills his promise eternally by annointing Jesus (the annointed one) by the Holy Spirit and establishes a heavenly kingdom (as Jesus told pilate “If my kingdom were of this world my soldiers would rescue me from you” paraphrased) where God has completed his promise. The thing is Torah as well as being temporal is also spiritual so the Annoiting of kings in the Tanakh is a physical annointing and a spiritual one where by the Holy Spirit annoites enabling a king to rule. Zion is referred to as Jerusalem (temporally) also the Heavenly reward where God lives (spiritual).
So I’m speaking from the Christian view.

 

[ralphinal]

Well, why didn’t they remain observant jews? Jesus told them to strictly observe the Torah. They developed another religion, and Jesus had no part in it. Jesus lived his whole life as a jew. He was so jewish that thousands in his own time believed that he was the true messiah, you can’t get more jewish than that.

Using the authority given to them, the Apostles, in the Council of Jerusalem, decided that gentile converts to Christianity would not eb required to keep the entire Law. This was so the burdon would not be too great upon them. Now, as to why we, as a whole, are no longer considered Jewish, one must look at the aftermath of 70 a.d. Many Jews in that time felt that the Messiah was there. Christians refused to follow this man. When the Romans scattered them to the winds, the Jewish leadership decided that as Christians did nothing to help their fellow Jews, they were no longer Jewish and no longer welcome in the Community.

You believe in replacement theology. You believe that you can replace the jewish and inherit the promises God made solely to them. It is a genocidal idea really. The term christ has no meaning beyond the throne of David. Christ is promised to Israel alone.

I never said any of that. I do not beleive that. At no time did I say that the first covenant, that with the Jews was Null and Void. What I am saying is that the Church is the New Covenant with all of mankind.

None of the Promises to Isreal are gone. Christians are not entitled to them instead.

Christ was promised to Isreal. He came to Isreal. They rejected him. That does not mean that Isreal is inherently damned. It does not make Jews evil. But, once Jesus had fulfilled his role to proclaim the Good News to the Jews, he sent out his followers to proclaim it to all the world.

 

[trdchubi]

The Catholic church teaches that Jesus is the "The Way, the Truth, and the Life, no one comes to the Father but through Jesus” (John 14:6). The Jews are God’s chosen people, but they are not saved because of this privileged, but through their personal belief that Jesus is the Promised Savior of Israel.

Does an Israelite need to believe on this one specific teaching,taught by the Church established by Christ? I say yes!

But I would also point out that the Catholic Church also need the Jews, to remind her of how ‘stubbornly’ faithful and patient this God of Salvation is. True enough Salvation came from the Jews, they were chosen to be a blessing to all the nations of the earth (Genesis 12). The Jews were chosen to be a light to the Gentiles. Its about time we blessed them back through our prayers.

 

[trdchubi]

I think I understand what you are trying to say. My question still remains. Has God anointed the R.C. Church above His anointed children?

Will God Change His Mind?

Somebody pointed it out before, (in another thread forgot where) that the Jews are still the ‘Physical’ Chosen people of God, while the Christians are the ‘Spiritual’ Chosen People of God.

I would also take note,that the original church was entirely Jewish.

 

[trdchubi]

We all know where Christianity comes from, but it was first taught by the apostles, to the gentiles (per the scripture).

I think the Apostles were preaching to both Jews and Gentiles at the same time.

It is also written, that the jews will also be taught, later (ie. they will not be forgotten). My original question still remains.

Yes, God is still unfinished with Israel as a nation. The Bible tells us that in the end times, Israel will finally recognize Jesus as their Messiah (Zechariah 12:10).

 

[trdchubi]

Where are the Tribes today? Where were they when Jesus walked the earth?

I think all the tribes of Israel are included in what we call today the Jewish people.

One argument is that during the time of the kingdom division and the captivities, a certain percentage of each of the northern tribes came down and took up residence in the area of Judah. After that time the name Judah or the Jews referred not only to the specific tribe of Judah but also to the Benjaminites, the Levites and the remnant of all the northern tribes.

Are Today’s Jews Really Ancient Israel?

 

[Peter_J]

**“Or praying to a saint outside of Mass.” ** In the Chronicles, we find that God was angry with Saul, because he saught answers from Samuel. Saul should have saught answers from God. The Lord God Almighty is our father in heaven, not anyone else. Jesus Christ (Who He, Himself said that there is no one good but God.), tells us, that we don’t know how to pray, and therefore gave us The Lord’s Prayer. He also tells us, that anything [righteous] that we ask of His Father, in His (Jesus’) name, will be granted unto us. Only The Holy Ghost and Jesus can make intercession between us and The Lord God Almighty. Saints cannot do this (especially ‘man-made’ ones).

Not to be lazy, but there have already been a number of threads on the topic of praying to the Saints. See, e.g., Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him …Mary or Jesus?.

 

[SingleMomMonica]

Will God Change His Mind?

Somebody pointed it out before, (in another thread forgot where) that the Jews are still the ‘Physical’ Chosen people of God, while the Christians are the ‘Spiritual’ Chosen People of God.

I would also take note,that the original church was entirely Jewish.

No, God has not changed His Mind.

Somebody who claims that there are two people of God is nuts and doesn’t know the Bible at all!

There is and always has been One Chosen People of God.

At first that was limited to a person, then a family, then a tribe, then a nation - namely the Jews and now the entire world - namely the Catholic Church and the Jews were the first invites to join the Catholic Church, some did and some didn’t.

Those Jews who chose not to join the Catholic Church to continue in God’s Salvation Plan are now outside of His Chosen People, in other words, they have chosen NOT to be His Chosen. They need salvation just as much as the rest of us, but they have free-will, also just like the rest of us. Those Jews who have chosen to remain outside of the Catholic Church are choosing of their own free-will to not be a member of God’s Chosen People.

 

[geometer]

Those Jews who have chosen to remain outside of the Catholic Church are choosing of their own free-will to not be a member of God’s Chosen People.

You are completely wrong. None of the prophecies that Jesus is to fulfill have anything to do with catholics. They are all about Israel and the people of Israel. He said himself “Salvation is from the Jews”.

 

[sambos671]

You are completely wrong. None of the prophecies that Jesus is to fulfill have anything to do with catholics. They are all about Israel and the people of Israel. He said himself “Salvation is from the Jews”.

Speaking of himself. He is from the Jews. So now Jew and Gentile can be united in Salvation under Jesus. And in that sense all prophesies have everything to do with Christianity.

 

[geometer]

And in that sense all prophesies have everything to do with Christianity.

Nonsense…

 

[sambos671]

Nonsense…

I respect your opinion but you’re wrong. The Christian contention is that Jesus fulfilled all requirements of the Torah (not obishing them). That this same Jesus is God (one God) as a person of the Trinity. That this same God spoke with Abraham and established Israel. The Passover is a foreshadowing of Jesus redemptive work. The Exodus is a foreshadowing of what God wants to do for the entire human race. The Promised land or Canaan is a foreshadowing of eternity with God. The history of ancient Israel is a sample of Man’s history with God where there is constant friction but as in Hosea God keeps calling man back into right relationship with him. That Ezekiel and Jerimiah’s prophesies predict the physical resurrection from the dead. That Judgement is not just for the Jews but for all mankind. And the christian faith and hope is in this same God to redeem us to everlasting life. That is our contention with regard to the writings of the Torah and the books of the Tanakh.

 

[ralphinal]

The issue of the prophacies of Jesus being for Isreal are true, until they are fulfilled. Once Jesus was born, lived, died, and rose again, he filfilled all of those prophacies, and we need not look for another to do so.